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Per the BCCR;

 

"Shifters, provided the original function is maintained (Conversion to paddle shift or sequential shift is not permitted)"

 

Now, the word conversion is there. However, there are now cars on the VPI list that come with paddle shifters factory. Caddy ATS comes to mind. We can't add something to our cars that is available to other cars on the VPI list?

 

I get the idea behind banning $30K sequential shift T56's, but a button shifted automatic is illegal as well? That's just some code and a couple buttons/paddles.

 

 

 

 

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At one point someone had a ruling that they could race a DSG dual clutch paddle shifted trans and take the 75 point automatic credit, that loop hole has been closed. 

 

Even without the automatic credit it would make an awesome race car. My daily driver is a Golf 4motion with a DSG transmission and Haldex all wheel drive, it's a blast running around the mountains we have around here. It even rev matches for you on the down shifts. 

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I'm talking about a paddle shifted auto, with torque convertor, here. GM has/had this in a number of vehicles and it works very well. The ATS I mentioned had this as did the G8 which is also on the list.

 

I agree that DSG's should not get the 75 point automatic deduction. Frankly ridiculous if it was ever allowed.

 

Saying that, BMW DCT's are available pretty reasonably (I've seen $750), can take power, and can be bolted behind GM V8's and a number of others as well I'm sure. Would kinda like to give one of those a spin.

 

The DCT out of an E90, I think, is the one some are using for this swap. If it isn't on the list yet, it will be then what about paddle shifts?

Edited by Bandit
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Just because it comes on a car on the vpi list, doesn't mean everyone can have it for free.

 

Can I have a v8 for free?  There is one on the list?  Can I have a 6 speed for free?  Auto or manual?  There is some that have it on the list.

 

Can you do it for points?  Most likely.  Can you swap in that trans and get the paddle shifters for free, most likely.

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10 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Looks pretty clear. Move along sir.

I guess CC is saying the same to those that may want to enter a car that has them factory. ATS, G8, I assume the E90 and such late model BMW's that are on the vpi list. Likely others as well.

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9 hours ago, Bandit said:

I guess CC is saying the same to those that may want to enter a car that has them factory. ATS, G8, I assume the E90 and such late model BMW's that are on the vpi list. Likely others as well.

Similarly looking at 350Zs and wondering about using the steering wheel mounted shift buttons from the g35.

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13 hours ago, Bandit said:

I didn't say anything about free or points. The rule says NOT PERMITTED. That seems pretty explicit.

Ah, I missed the point.   

 

I bet you can with points.  Ask the tech desk.

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12 hours ago, Bandit said:

I guess CC is saying the same to those that may want to enter a car that has them factory. ATS, G8, I assume the E90 and such late model BMW's that are on the vpi list. Likely others as well.

 

This section you quoted is under 4.7.2 "Items that are point free"

"Shifters, provided the original function is maintained (Conversion to paddle shift or sequential shift is not permitted)"

 

Any car which has that from the factory would not need a CONVERSION to paddle shift. So it is 100% ok to have a paddle shifting ATS / G8 / whatever. Just like (I think) everywhere else in the rulebook, using factory parts is always 100% ok (unless there's a safety concern).

Edited by enginerd
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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Shifters, provided the original function is maintained (Conversion to paddle shift or sequential shift is not permitted)

 

Any car which has that from the factory would not need a CONVERSION to paddle shift. So it is 100% ok to have a paddle shifting ATS / G8 / whatever.

From my first post;

Quote

Now, the word conversion is there. However, there are now cars on the VPI list that come with paddle shifters factory. Caddy ATS comes to mind. We can't add something to our cars that is available to other cars on the VPI list?

 So, modern cars get advancements that cannot be applied to older models per CC.

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9 minutes ago, Bandit said:

 So, modern cars get advancements that cannot be applied to older models per CC.

I was quoting your later post where you implied that cars which have factory paddle shift are being told to "move along and don't race here", which is inaccurate.

 

And yes, some cars can run parts that others can't. Oh well. Pick your car wisely. I'm sure the e90 BMW would love your Thundercougarfalconbird's v8 engine, but can't run one of those!

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43 minutes ago, Bandit said:

From my first post;

 So, modern cars get advancements that cannot be applied to older models per CC.

Yes, if you’re seeking a gray area, how about paying 25 points for a Infiniti G 35 transmission, I would think the paddles come with it.

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My MR2 Spyder build has the shifters on the wheel for the SMT (manual transaxle with a hydraulic actuator -only a two pedal car). I was told by tech desk that i was okay to keep it, but was not allowed to upgrade to paddles because mine came with buttons. I wanted to change out the steering wheel and use paddles that comes with the aftermarket transmission control unit. It doesn't change the the shifting, it just changes the actuators. I can add some cheesy yet clever spatulas to press the buttons. I could reuse the switching in the button, and solder it into a flappy paddle system.
 

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36 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Yes, if you’re seeking a gray area, how about paying 25 points for a Infiniti G 35 transmission, I would think the paddles come with it.

Sounds reasonable to me. However the rules bring it into question. I've only noted shifters mentioned in the BCCR under the free parts section where paddle shift is explicitly denied.

 

As mentioned in my first post I kinda think the idea was to ban expensive sequential shift conversions as can be done on T56's, and other trans I am sure. (And then Strong shows up with some SMT thing....) Perhaps an area where the attempt to conserve words and keep the rules short ends up having unintended consequences?

 

I mean is someone threatened by a 4L60 with paddle shift?

 

*6L80 came with them factory but apparently are very difficult to swap, due to electrons, into a pre 2005 car.

Edited by Bandit
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9 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Sounds reasonable to me. However the rules bring it into question. I've only noted shifters mentioned in the BCCR under the free parts section where paddle shift is explicitly denied.

 

As mentioned in my first post I kinda think the idea was to ban expensive sequential shift conversions as can be done on T56's, and other trans I am sure. (And then Strong shows up with some SMT thing....) Perhaps an area where the attempt to conserve words and keep the rules short ends up having unintended consequences?

 

I mean is someone threatened by a 4l60 with paddle shift?

 

*6L80 came with them factory but apparently are very difficult to swap, due to electrons, into a pre 2005 car.

I think the idea is "you're getting -75 points for running an automatic, it should be a big disadvantage"

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3 minutes ago, Bandit said:

The rule is not automatic centric.

Ok, what 'not automatic' transmissions/cars would you 'convert to paddle shift', and how? I was thinking about those electronically shifted automatics with torque converters.

Edited by enginerd
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  • Technical Advisory Committee

 It says they are not permitted and listed in the free point section. I am so inclined to believe that installing stearing wheel paddle shift with a torque converter auto transmission would not be free of point add. As in not allowed for free = plus points, how many depends on the parts used.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Yeah this thread just says to me there’s a communication and mindset issue in Champcar.

 

i know for a fact that the intent of this rule was NOT to keep a torque converter automatic from using buttons to change gear, especially if the request is just to move the buttons from the paddle in the center console to paddles on the steering column.

 

The intent was to stop the $$$ conversion of clutched manuals with h-patterns to sequential shift in a non-h-pattern manner.

 

I penned the wording of the rule, and can see the confusion, so I’ll propose an update when it comes around for 2022. 

Until then, it’s up to tech to decide how they want to enforce it, and you should refer to the tech desk for an answer.

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4.7.2. Items that are point free:

  • Driver comfort & information items are open and do not count towards total points (i.e. -steering wheel, removable steering wheel adapter, shifter handles, gauges, pedals, cool suits, vents, heaters, radio communications, etc.)
  • Shifters, provided the original function is maintained (Conversion to paddle shift or sequential shift is not permitted)
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