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2021 Official - Willow Springs Double 8+7


Bill Strong
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Early Pay $875!!!!!

Early Pay Discount Ends: Extended to green flag

 

 

 

 

78.jpg   June 19-June 20, 2021
WILLOW SPRINGS RACEWAY: 8+7-Hour Enduro, $1075
Rosamond, CA
"Willow Springs"
Early Pay Discount Ends: April 20, 2021
Event Director: dana.morrison@champcar.org
Entrant List
Download Supplemental Rules and Event Info
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Entries for Willow Springs

Updated 6/17/2021

    Team Name Car # Year Make Model
1.   Alchemy Racers 813 1984 BMW 318i
2.   APT Racing 297 1995 BMW E36
3.   Bandits 47 1979 Pontiac Trans Am
4.   CANCELED. Club Fred Racing 83 1982 Mazda RX7
5.   CANCELED. Tangerine Dream 570 1990 Honda Civic
6.   Drive Skills 319 1992 Mazda Miata
7.   Holy Rollers Racing 777 1989 Ford Mustang LX
8.   LEFTOVER PARTS RACING / MICHAEL CHIAPPETTA 74 1984 MAZDA RX7
9.   Miata Colada 25 1999 Mazda Miata
10.   Project.D Race Team 168 1996 Mazda Miata
11.   Racing Strong Motorsports 179 1973 Opel GT
12.   Roto-Plooker Racing 37 1990 Mazda RX7
13.   Rotundo Racing 7 1998 Honda Prelude
14.   Rusty Duck Racing 99 2004 Mazda RX-8
15.   Tangerine Dream 571 CRX 1988 Honda
16.   Team Honda Research West 1 216 2017 Honda Civic
17.   Team Honda Research West 2 217 2016 Honda Civic
18.   TEAM TANGO 146 1991 VOLVO 740 Wagon
19.   Uncommon Friends Racing 46 1978 Datsun 280Z
20.   Yeah baby 96 1971 Mg Mgb
21.   Zoom Zoom Kaboom 184 1994 Mazda Miata
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  • ChampCar Staff

 

So, a serious question. Is there anyone watching this thread and thinking about entering? Are you on the fence and worried because the entry count is low? I'm willing to make some accommodations if that will help you decide. I've said before that we are committed to all races nationwide. So if you're thinking about it, please contact me and let me know what I can do to help you get registered.

 

Thanks,

Dana 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/26/2021 at 8:32 AM, DuncanDana said:

 

So, a serious question. Is there anyone watching this thread and thinking about entering? Are you on the fence and worried because the entry count is low? I'm willing to make some accommodations if that will help you decide. I've said before that we are committed to all races nationwide. So if you're thinking about it, please contact me and let me know what I can do to help you get registered.

 

Thanks,

Dana 

 

 

Not really. A lot of us agreed that 2021 was the year to go to luckydog. Many of us love champcar but after having a field of less then 25 cars at almost all the west coast races in 2019 and then having the series cancel all the 2020 races (which was the right call) I just can't bring myself to pursue races with champcar out west.  I know you want this to be a Nationwide series, so do I but I think it might be time to stay on your side of the Mississippi to avoid losing more money. Not sure what exactly went wrong with champcar on the west coast.  Kathy has 70 cars signed up for Willow Springs in May and has had car counts like that at all her events for years? 

 

I couldnt wrap my head around her success vs champcars west coast failure for awhile but I have concluded its the rules. Kathy's series is pretty laissez-faire and just seperates cars up based on laptimes, haters call this bracket racing (and I dont really disagree). I also used to hate this laptime idea but now I view Kathy's league as if its a amateur softball league. Where there is a beer league, the bronze, the silver, and the gold. You get too good and you get moved up a league. You hit more then one home run in a game and you get kicked out. It keeps everyone happy, its simple, no protesting, no VPI changes when a car is too fast. Is it perfect? frack no. But its way easier for Kathy to keep the racers happy and easier for the racers be competitive. Do some make up for their lake of skill with money/power? Yup. 

 

I think Champcar needs to consider moving to a more friendly rule format. The rulebook is a contorted evolution that started with the $500 concept. I know this because I watched it and even contributed to the rules. Its just too messy and restrictive. Turns us against each other. It still seems to be working in the East Coast so I dont blame Champcar for continuing to try to fix it. I just wonder if Champcar will see the east coast car count decrease as Kathy expands out east? 

 

I got a text or two about the Championship and how Tuttle was caught cheating and how he should get banned,  how this is terrible, cheaters are the devil, etc. Made be think of how the west coast used to do this with DoorSlammers until they got tired of all the bull cookies and left the series. Now we miss those dudes. Turns out I just want to play some softball acouple weekends a year with other teams that are similar in skill set. This is intramural racing, we didnt make it to the big show, we are here to have a good time doing something we have a deep passion for with other people who share that. The rules cater to the handful of want to be Adrian Neweys (dont read this as an aero reference) of the league who love to find the loophole, the unicorn build, the ideal setup. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jamie
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18 hours ago, Jamie said:

 

 

Not really. A lot of us agreed that 2021 was the year to go to luckydog. Many of us love champcar but after having a field of less then 25 cars at almost all the west coast races in 2019 and then having the series cancel all the 2020 races (which was the right call) I just can't bring myself to pursue races with champcar out west.  I know you want this to be a Nationwide series, so do I but I think it might be time to stay on your side of the Mississippi to avoid losing more money. Not sure what exactly went wrong with champcar on the west coast.  Kathy has 70 cars signed up for Willow Springs in May and has had car counts like that at all her events for years? 

 

I couldnt wrap my head around her success vs champcars west coast failure for awhile but I have concluded its the rules. Kathy's series is pretty laissez-faire and just seperates cars up based on laptimes, haters call this bracket racing (and I dont really disagree). I also used to hate this laptime idea but now I view Kathy's league as if its a amateur softball league. Where there is a beer league, the bronze, the silver, and the gold. You get too good and you it moved up a league. You hit more then one home run in a game and you get kicked out. It keeps everyone happy, its simple, no protesting, no VPI changes when a car is too fast. Is it perfect? frack no. But its way easier for Kathy to keep the racers happy and easier for the racers be competitive. Do some make up for their lake of skill with money/power? Yup. 

 

I think Champcar needs to consider moving to a more friendly rule format. The rulebook is a contorted evolution that started with the $500 concept. I know this because I watched it and even contributed to the rules. Its just too messy and restrictive. Turns us against each other. It still seems to be working in the East Coast so I dont blame Champcar for continuing to try to fix it. I just wonder if Champcar will see the east coast car count decrease as Kathy expands out east? 

 

I got a text or two about the Championship and how Tuttle was caught cheating and how he should get banned,  how this is terrible, cheaters are the devil, etc. Made be think of how the west coast used to do this with DoorSlammers until they got tired of all the bull cookies and left the series. Now we miss those dudes. Turns out I just want to play some softball acouple weekends a year with other teams that are similar in skill set. This is intramural racing, we didnt make it to the big show, we are here to have a good time doing something we have a deep passion for with other people who share that. The rules cater to the handful of want to be Adrian Neweys (dont read this as an aero reference) of the league who love to find the loophole, the unicorn build, the ideal setup. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jamie it is nice to hear from you guys out west, understand what your saying and very well put. It is sad to me as we as a team really want to come west to race at some point. Looks like it can still be done with LD which is good.

 

So now to get Champcar to stop trying is another thing but sounds like the right path. Thanks for your honest thoughts.

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On 4/22/2021 at 4:53 PM, Jamie said:

 

 

Made be think of how the west coast used to do this with DoorSlammers until they got tired of all the bull cookies and left the series. Now we miss those dudes

 

 

 

They ran big fuel cells. on both cars.

After they left I was told by one of their crew what they were doing.

I was pretty freaking pissed.

 

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Some honest thoughts.

 

Racing on the west coast is alive and well, and LDRL allows the car builder to make the mods that are economical and effective for that car rather than having to conform to rules that are increasingly built around certain cars. I can spend less money to go faster, and can avoid having to start over with a new car build that the rules favour more than my present choice.

 

The series recognizes what just about every other series out there knows, that lap times are a good indicator of the car's potential. Qualifying is used to separate the initial field into classes; if a team starts moving through the field, they get reclassed accordingly. Fuel is still important but not to the point of essentially eliminating a particular car just because the factory short-changed it. Any car can be anywhere in the field depending entirely on how much or little effort that team wants to into their program. I can run at the back or at the front with a Civic or a Mustang. Teams who are there for the fun have fun; teams who are there for the win can do whatever they feel they need to do for the win. 

 

Factors:

1. Spec tires: level playing field

2. 24 gallon fuel limit: level playing field

3. Classes by lap time: level playing field within classes

4. Target lap time: too fast and you get warned or put on the trailer - no GBU 10 second gap to the rest of the field.

 

I've tried to suggest things for CCC that I thought would help the series while maintaining the original premise, that of getting people out on track and allowing teams to be competitive in whatever car they wanted to run rather than looking for the unicorn build. I feel there are too many people in CCC personally invested keeping their rule advantages right now to expect any changes. 

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Factors:

1. Spec tires: level playing field

Never. 

2. 24 gallon fuel limit: level playing field

24 gallons of gas in my opel would make it even slower. How does that level the playing field.

3. Classes by lap time: level playing field within classes

So bracket racing

4. Target lap time: too fast and you get warned or put on the trailer - no GBU 10 second gap to the rest of the field.

So it's not really a race. 

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28 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Factors:

1. Spec tires: level playing field

Never. 

2. 24 gallon fuel limit: level playing field

24 gallons of gas in my opel would make it even slower. How does that level the playing field.

3. Classes by lap time: level playing field within classes

So bracket racing

4. Target lap time: too fast and you get warned or put on the trailer - no GBU 10 second gap to the rest of the field.

So it's not really a race. 

Not a huge fan of most of those things myself, but one series has big fields while the other is running a fire sale trying to avoid another cancellation. 14 teams signed up for a race in CA with a price of $875 is just sad.

 

And other than Daytona and the Glen, always popular bucket list tracks (and Mid Ohio was off the schedule for several years iirc), CC's counts seem down most everywhere else. Just over 50 cars started at Road America, a track that used to have much larger starting fields. Charlotte wasn't close to sold out.

 

Concerning #4 and "not being a race", just how is their way different than CC arbitrarily slowing down a car that is inherently fast? Or any car that beats the BMW/Miata/CRX contingent for that matter? CC does that across the board except for the chosen few.

 

 

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Charlotte had about ten cancellations due to covid and there have been restrictions put in place from many teams employers on where they can go. It sucks. but it's the reality we live in now.

We had a few that asked not to be put on the show just for that reason. Like don't talk about or to me on the show in case someone sees I am here.

That has happened a few times the past few races as covid numbers climbed back up.

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oh, and we are not cancelling. I spoke with Dana a few minutes ago and we just decided to keep it at $875. We all have our plane tickets and rental cars sorted. So we are going and putting on a race. Would liove to see mender there since we have not seen him at a champcar race in a few years.

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58 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Factors:

1. Spec tires: level playing field

Never. 

2. 24 gallon fuel limit: level playing field

24 gallons of gas in my opel would make it even slower. How does that level the playing field.

3. Classes by lap time: level playing field within classes

So bracket racing

4. Target lap time: too fast and you get warned or put on the trailer - no GBU 10 second gap to the rest of the field.

So it's not really a race. 


I would agree. Spec tire and tire size levels a lot of the field. Fuel capacity with maximum drive time at 2 hours does nothing for low fuel consumers. If I had 24gallons of fuel I could probably go 3+ hours but I have to stop at 2hrs. Target lap times, you just have to track your lap times if you are one of the fast guys. Don’t break out of your bracket during qualifying and monitor the lap times during the race. Go quick when you need to but don’t do it for long. GBU does this for a living in IMSA. 

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What is this talk of “leveling the field” with tires? Their field is already broken into brackets by lap time... I would question the intelligence of anyone running a soft tire that required mid-race changes with that kind of rule book.

 

Jamie provides some good insight into Lucky, thanks.

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24 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Charlotte had about ten cancellations due to covid and there have been restrictions put in place from many teams employers on where they can go. It sucks. but it's the reality we live in now.

We had a few that asked not to be put on the show just for that reason. Like don't talk about or to me on the show in case someone sees I am here.

That has happened a few times the past few races as covid numbers climbed back up.

On the event page it says in big bold font; Limited to 75 entries.

 

There were 33. 

 

Daytona and The Glen are sold out. Guess covid isn't an issue at those tracks.

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4 minutes ago, Bandit said:

On the event page it says in big bold font; Limited to 75 entries.

 

There were 33. 

 

Daytona and The Glen are sold out. Guess covid isn't an issue at those tracks.

 

 

we never have sold out Charlotte. its been pretty steady. 
It's an awesome track that needs respect and has caught out those that have made mistakes. Requires big balls to go fast, or you go home with a bent car, as the track is very unforgiving. 
Plus we run the big boy track, not the roval with the slow down sections.

 

oh, and the added benefit of the race being so close to the national championship didn't help with attendance.
It was a fun race, even with the small field.

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We will continue to come out west. lose money or not. we love racing out there. We have teams that love racing with us. As long as we have teams wanting to race, we will go.
 

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43 minutes ago, Bandit said:

just how is their way different than CC arbitrarily slowing down a car that is inherently fast?

CC doesn't allow inherently fast, fuel short sports cars more fuel.

 

16 minutes ago, Bandit said:

On the event page it says in big bold font; Limited to 75 entries.

 

There were 33. 

 

Daytona and The Glen are sold out. Guess covid isn't an issue at those tracks.

Daytona and Charlotte are booked on top of each other, we like both places, but to turnaround a single car (and wallet) for both events... Impossible for most.

13 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

 

we never have sold out Charlotte. its been pretty steady. 
It's an awesome track that need respect and has caught out those that have made mistake. Requires big balls to go fast or you go home with a bent car. 
Plus we run the big boy track, not the roval with the slow down sections.

Big balls indeed, so much so, some folks pass.

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1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

Factors:

1. Spec tires: level playing field

Never. 

2. 24 gallon fuel limit: level playing field

24 gallons of gas in my opel would make it even slower. How does that level the playing field.

3. Classes by lap time: level playing field within classes

So bracket racing

4. Target lap time: too fast and you get warned or put on the trailer - no GBU 10 second gap to the rest of the field.

So it's not really a race. 

1. It works. 

2. It gets everyone to two hours instead of penalizing random cars. If you want to drag around extra weight in your Opel that doesn't help you, that's on you. 

3. No different from CCC. Finishing position depends on what the team wants to put into the effort, not whether they have the unicorn car or not. 

4. 10 seconds a lap faster is a race? Really, Bill? 

Edited by mender
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52 minutes ago, TimS said:


I would agree. Spec tire and tire size levels a lot of the field. Fuel capacity with maximum drive time at 2 hours does nothing for low fuel consumers. If I had 24gallons of fuel I could probably go 3+ hours but I have to stop at 2hrs. Target lap times, you just have to track your lap times if you are one of the fast guys. Don’t break out of your bracket during qualifying and monitor the lap times during the race. Go quick when you need to but don’t do it for long. GBU does this for a living in IMSA. 

Yeah, no on the bracket racing. At least not for us, we go for the overall win if we can. Last time out we started in Class C (lowest) and could have backed off when leading those cars. Instead, we kept pushing and got reclassified twice (to Class A) as we moved through the field and into the overall lead.   

 

The suggestions that I made on the fuel were to help the cars that struggled to make 1:30 while keeping up with the fuel rich cars. Too bad for you if that rule wouldn't help you, there's way too much of this attitude out there now. 

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20 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:
1 hour ago, Bandit said:

just how is their way different than CC arbitrarily slowing down a car that is inherently fast?

CC doesn't allow inherently fast, fuel short sports cars more fuel.

The car I was referring to, the C3R, would have to run with less fuel in LD so not sure what car you are talking about.

 

Tuttle? Guess I don't have an issue with the fast car winning. 

 

*That does not say I condone his cheating the written rules. I don't care for the fuel rule.

 

Saying that, the C3R is one of those unicorns. And more are being built.

 

The fuel rules eliminate a number of cars from consideration that otherwise would be competitive in CC. And make unicorns out of others. (Beyond just the Vette)

 

The point of my post that you responded to was that if you come with a car faster than the chosen Triad, you will be penalized with points. As shown in the increased VPI's of a number of cars. Not much different than LD saying you can't go faster than X:XX laptime.

Edited by Bandit
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2 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

Factors:

1. Spec tires: level playing field

Never. 

2. 24 gallon fuel limit: level playing field

24 gallons of gas in my opel would make it even slower. How does that level the playing field.

3. Classes by lap time: level playing field within classes

So bracket racing

4. Target lap time: too fast and you get warned or put on the trailer - no GBU 10 second gap to the rest of the field.

So it's not really a race. 

 

Its not my favorite way ethier but its way better then racing against 10 cars.  Everyone who races with them has nothing but good things to say and most don't love the bracket racing idea ethier but in reality its not an issue. I am not proposing that champcar copies lucky dog but uses the west coast as a indicator that there might be a better way to cater better to all of the teams instead of the nerds like you and I who wait for the new rules to be released with baited breath.

 

For the record: I would love to race exclusivly with champcar still. It crushes my soul a bit that I have to find a new home. 

 

Full discloser I have not even raced lucky dog yet. My first with them will be my first race since covid (this weekend). 

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Bandit said:

if you come with a car faster than the chosen Triad, you will be penalized with points. As shown in the increased VPI's of a number of cars.

It takes much to get ones VPI changed, on the other hand, if you come out with a gun to shoot fish in a barrel, you will likely see more scrutiny. Build the car with tech in the loop and get out there with the rest of us, rather then critiquing the rules till they fit your vision.

 

As for the triad you invented, it can easily be done outside of that, go check the top 5 of Daytona. (yes I know you are aware)

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Just now, Team Infiniti said:

It takes much to get ones VPI changed, on the other hand, if you come out with a gun to shoot fish in a barrel, you will likely see more scrutiny. Build the car with tech in the loop and get out there with the rest of us, rather then critiquing the rules till they fit your vision.

 

As for the triad you invented, it can easily be done outside of that, go check the top 5 of Daytona. (yes I know you are aware)

Invented nothing. It's obvious to anyone that cares to look. 

 

Static VPI's and inflated swap weights for the cars that win most often. Raised VPI's and/or lower swap weights for those that have the temerity to invade the podium or even threaten to.

 

 

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