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2021 Official - Willow Springs Double 8+7


Bill Strong
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3 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Invented nothing. It's obvious to anyone that cares to look. 

 

Static VPI's and inflated swap weights for the cars that win most often. Raised VPI's and/or lower swap weights for those that have the temerity to invade the podium or even threaten to.

 

 

Getting to the point, you are not using your superpowers in the right way, criticizing the rules, and lobbying to fix whatever is distasteful, rather then building to them with a car that can take advantage of some strength, will get you satisfying finishes.

 

Where is your Diesel Cutlass supertanker w/ 4.8L LR4?

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Getting to the point, you are not using your superpowers in the right way, criticizing the rules, and lobbying to fix whatever is distasteful, rather then building to them with a car that can take advantage of some strength, will get you satisfying finishes.

 

Where is your Diesel Cutlass supertanker w/ 4.8L LR4?

Seeing as there are not enough points to even put a manual in it..... 

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Now who would have guessed a big rear drive Cutlass is 400 pounds lighter than a J30? Or the same weight as an E30 while being 3 feet longer.

 

Only in Champcar.

 

*21.7 gal with a cell is hardly a supertanker.

 

eta-Weight without options. Over 3700 was normal for the diesels.

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Edited by Bandit
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2 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

oh, and we are not cancelling. I spoke with Dana a few minutes ago and we just decided to keep it at $875. We all have our plane tickets and rental cars sorted. So we are going and putting on a race. Would liove to see mender there since we have not seen him at a champcar race in a few years.

Two roadblocks (one literal):

1. It's a 24 hour haul one way to Willow Springs. Utah is much closer. 

2. The border is closed. 

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4 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Seeing as there are not enough points to even put a manual in it..... 

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Now who would have guessed a big rear drive Cutlass is 400 pounds lighter than a J30? Or the same weight as an E30 while being 3 feet longer.

 

Only in Champcar.

 

*21.7 gal with a cell is hardly a supertanker.

 

 

Ask for a VIP reconsideration within the rules, it would likely fly right through faster then trying to get a change in fuel capacities or bracket classes.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

It takes much to get ones VPI changed, on the other hand, if you come out with a gun to shoot fish in a barrel, you will likely see more scrutiny. Build the car with tech in the loop and get out there with the rest of us, rather then critiquing the rules till they fit your vision.

 

As for the triad you invented, it can easily be done outside of that, go check the top 5 of Daytona. (yes I know you are aware)

 

In CC for the unchosen it only takes leading the field by half a lap after several hours of racing to get hit with a 100 point penalty.  It also only takes some wins with a small margin in a Cobra to get hit with points, or in the case of the Mustang GT no wins despite many attempts in numerous years to get hit with more points.  In LD if you have a clearly superior car they will be having a conversation only with the clearly superior team, all other teams with the similar car but not superior performance do not get penalized.

 

3 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

Factors:

1. Spec tires: level playing field

Never. 

2. 24 gallon fuel limit: level playing field

24 gallons of gas in my opel would make it even slower. How does that level the playing field.

3. Classes by lap time: level playing field within classes

So bracket racing

4. Target lap time: too fast and you get warned or put on the trailer - no GBU 10 second gap to the rest of the field.

So it's not really a race. 

 

So the conclusion is what all of the unchosen have encountered for years: a level playing field is not in the cards. :wacko: :o :D  FYI, @mender was incorrect, GBU would not be on the trailer, they just get moved out of the classes and continue racing - just racing with themselves.

 

Before everybody jumps all over that and espouses how close the races are in CC due to the rules, have a look at the close races also in LD.  Not trying to convert anyone, just saying despite different rules the cars and racing are very similar.  The biggest difference is the lack of arguing over the rules to maintain the relevance of your own car.

 

If GBU did a similar performance in LD they would get the talk instead of favoured rulings, all other Vettes and Camaro's do not get penalized.  If KRFL did a similar performance up to the engine fail they get a pat on the back from LD, not all TBirds get penalized.  If Crowd Control did a similar performance they get a pat on the back from LD, not all Mustangs get a bump.  If Tuttle did similar and ran 26 gallons, they would have a stern talk.

 

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1 hour ago, Jamie said:

... instead of the nerds like you and I who wait for the new rules to be released with baited breath.

 

 

 

 

 

A real nerd would quote Shakespeare correctly... 😁

 

Pretty sure you'll feel right at home next weekend, have fun! 

Edited by mender
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28 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

FYI, @mender was incorrect, GBU would not be on the trailer, they just get moved out of the classes and continue racing - just racing with themselves.

Actually, mender is correct. Read rule 12.c

 

Cars/teams that show up with 500 hp and massive aero that demonstrate excessive closing speeds will have to back it down or pack it up. LDRL deals with that in real time, at the track. 

Edited by mender
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26 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Ask for a VIP reconsideration within the rules, it would likely fly right through faster then trying to get a change in fuel capacities or bracket classes.

 

 

I just pointed out that CC would be wise to watch what the other series is doing as it seems to be working.

 

Frankly equal fuel doesn't help me but it does seem like a good idea. Is it any wonder there are not more 3rd and 4th gen F bodies running? C4 Vette's? All decent track cars but they need to stop more than about anyone due to small tanks. eta-Of course if they didn't have to stop every 1:30 it might hurt some feelings.

 

And I don't care for bracket racing. Not at the drags nor in road racing. I do like classes that make sense versus trying to slow down naturally faster cars.

 

Seeing as the swap weights were adjusted not long ago, although it is denied that happened, I really doubt any meaningful adjustment will be made. It would need to be a pretty substantial adjustment as the suspensions are bad from the factory as you well know.

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9 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Why not ask?

Perhaps I will. Perhaps instead of selectively quoting you might look at what I typed earlier in that sentence to see the source of my doubt.

 

They deny they changed it. Just like they claimed for months they didn't change the E30 weights.

 

*They did miss one G body. Although that one didn't have diesel available so it is somewhat fuel challenged.

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This is not what I came here for but I will never turn down my oportunity to stand on a soap box about this

 

I like the idea of a minialist rule book based on energy. This would constite of a set fuel to weight ratio broke into difference class. Classes are broken into min weights (examable: A = 2000, B=2250, C=2500, D=2750). Fuel is restricted to a set ratio of ~150lbs/gal. Fuel is restricted not by fuel tank size but by jugs (easyer to enforce). Biggest pain and issue is that this would mean you you would have to get your fuel jugs tech'ed and vehicle weighed. Tech would fill your jugs with water to the amount your allowed and mark the fill lines and the numbering (1 of X, 2 of x, etc). You would have to get your vehicle weighted yearly with your annual inspection and anyone in impound would have to cross the scales as well. Keep the 2 hour stint. Keep the 5 min refill (maybe this needs a slight tweak to hurt super high HP cars?). And the rest of the rules are for safety.

 

You want to run a LS1 in a 2200lb miata? Cool you get a 13.3 gallon jug set. You want to run a 400HP Gen 3 Camero that weighs 3000 lbs cool you get 18.33 gallons. You dont like your class? Ballest up or down. 

 

Light weight, easy to enforce, easy to build to, easy to wrap your head around. Not bracket racing. 

 

 

 

Edited by Jamie
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Carbed gets 10% more fuel, direct injection gets 10% less. 

 

If you want to add energy through the tire, 10 lbs/mm tread width. 

 

There you go, Champcar, simple ruleset for the west coast. What have you got to lose? ☺

Edited by mender
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10 minutes ago, mender said:

Carbed gets 10% more fuel, direct injection gets 10% less. 

 

If you want to add energy through the tire, 10 lbs/mm tread width. 

 

There you go, Champcar, simple ruleset for the west coast. What have you got to lose? ☺

Hell, have Willow be Run what ya brung on 200tw and see what happens. 😀

 

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keeping with my personal form of protest, I don't do things that require a mask.

Along with having the same blown engine we've had for over a year.

Anyone have an easy source for a M20b25?

 

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2 hours ago, mender said:

Actually, mender is correct. Read rule 12.c

 

Cars/teams that show up with 500 hp and massive aero that demonstrate excessive closing speeds will have to back it down or pack it up. LDRL deals with that in real time, at the track. 

 

I don't know that they have had to park anyone as per that rule, more typically they are just booted from the class to superdog (similar to Champ EC).  It is done real time during the race.

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11 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

I don't know that they have had to park anyone as per that rule, more typically they are just booted from the class to superdog (similar to Champ EC).  It is done real time during the race.

Hopefully they get the hint before the fourth black flag...

 

SD is now for cars that don't comply with the rules. 

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6 hours ago, Bandit said:

Not a huge fan of most of those things myself, but one series has big fields while the other is running a fire sale trying to avoid another cancellation. 14 teams signed up for a race in CA with a price of $875 is just sad.

 

And other than Daytona and the Glen, always popular bucket list tracks (and Mid Ohio was off the schedule for several years iirc), CC's counts seem down most everywhere else. Just over 50 cars started at Road America, a track that used to have much larger starting fields. Charlotte wasn't close to sold out.

 

Concerning #4 and "not being a race", just how is their way different than CC arbitrarily slowing down a car that is inherently fast? Or any car that beats the BMW/Miata/CRX contingent for that matter? CC does that across the board except for the chosen few.

 

 

Actually counts have been up or strong this year except for Charlotte, which fell right after the National Championship AND Daytona this year.  As an org we are in good shape.  Just doesn't work out west, and that's ok.  If Condron had been more decent to Kathy and Joey, WRL and LD wouldn't exist but it is what it is.  A friend of mine raced in LD last weekend and said it's quickly becoming another AER, bracket racing with 100K builds entering the fray.  I hope it stays fun for you west coast racers.  

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1 hour ago, mender said:

Hopefully they get the hint before the fourth black flag...

 

SD is now for cars that don't comply with the rules. 

 

SD always has been for cars that don't comply.  It is also for cars deemed to fast for the series, real time, during the race - I have seen several cars moved from A class to SD during the race.  Initially a classed car but then when lap times are reviewed a change of class just like you received.

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23 minutes ago, Jer said:

Actually counts have been up or strong this year except for Charlotte, which fell right after the National Championship AND Daytona this year.  As an org we are in good shape.  Just doesn't work out west, and that's ok.  If Condron had been more decent to Kathy and Joey, WRL and LD wouldn't exist but it is what it is.  A friend of mine raced in LD last weekend and said it's quickly becoming another AER, bracket racing with 100K builds entering the fray.  I hope it stays fun for you west coast racers.  

 

All good Jer except the $100k builds.  I disagree with that and your other comment a while back that many in LD were up in arms with the series tire - I believe both are incorrect statements.  I have not seen any discontent with the RS-4.  The series intent is to stay for the amateur and not the big dollar builds.  If you come with a GBU build and blow everyone out of the water you are racing yourself in SD class no matter how respectful you are on track or how you initially qualified (sandbagged).

 

Not trying to promote anything but the truth, I wish Champ continued success as well.

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