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1 minute ago, the5 said:

The only way I see too solve the tire problem is going to a Spec RS4, they last by far the longest out of all and one of the cheaper ones. 

 

If you ban some tires, we will just choose the fastest of the alloweed tires (Which will never be the RS4 as its the slowest)

Having a choice of 5 or more tire models/brands is bad?

 

Performance isn't the issue. Longevity is. If one of the 5 is marginally faster than the others so what? They last and everyone saves money which is the point.

 

Having a number of brands to choose from removes the availability issues that may crop up with a single supplier.

 

Again, it isn't about slowing cars down. It's about saving money. If everyone gravitates to a single tire as it's faster than the others, yet lasts a weekend why is that an issue? It isn't.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Bandit said:

Having a choice of 5 or more tire models/brands is bad?

 

Performance isn't the issue. Longevity is. If one of the 5 is marginally faster than the others so what? They last and everyone saves money which is the point.

 

Having a number of brands to choose from removes the availability issues that may crop up with a single supplier.

 

Again, it isn't about slowing cars down. It's about saving money. If everyone gravitates to a single tire as it's faster than the others, yet lasts a weekend why is that an issue? It isn't.

 

 

 

RS4 is the only tire I know that lasts as long as it does. 

 

The others are all very similar maybe re71r might be a shorter outlier. 

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59 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It also eliminates the need for people at pit in and pit out.

Apparently they would be needed at pit out to make sure drivers bother to strap themselves in while they rush to get back on track.

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5 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Then after the race I looked and saw you switched to RE71r.

 

Now you are stretching things to make your point.  I ran nothing but RE71's that weekend, we have already discussed that.

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1 hour ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

How about doing away with the 5 minute minimum pitstop? This would create more strategy as most teams today can fill up their car in about 2 or 3 minutes. Changing all tires every stop is allowed (cannot work on car while fueling is still enforced), but it takes time so each team will have to understand the tradeoff. It will also remove some advantage to small engine/big fuel tank cars so when they double-stint without fueling, it doesn't keep 2 hour fueling cars in the pits as long. And no more needing workers to keep track of pit stop time. Feels more like actual racing as well. 🤔

 

1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I have brought this up MANY times.  It solves almost all of champcar problems.  It also eliminates the need for people at pit in and pit out.

 

Some say it's safety reasons (absolutely is not in my opinion).  People fuel as fast as they can and change driver as fast as they can as it is.  To be safer, there should be rules on safety.  Like: spill fuel, 5 minute penalty.  

 

He'll, lemons doesn't even do timed pit stops and they aren't catching on fire or having cars ram I to each other because they didn't take the time to clean the windshield. 

 

In other words, it fixes the biggest problem in champcar (fuel parity) while also addressing this issue.

 

Issue #1: Cars which require a lot of fuel (American iron) taking longer to fuel than a miata, leads to longer pit stops, puts them at a disadvantage compared to current situation.

Issue #2: Safety. Rushing to fuel / speeding / not tightening belts / taking belts off early / teams forego coolshirt / etc. Imagine the first yellow flag pit stops at Watkins Glen (or any track where we have to double-stack) when 60 teams pour in for as fast as possible pit stops.

Issue #3: Sahlens will still do a 4 tire change in 20 seconds and then we're back to where we started... you proposed this rule *thinking* that you are adding minutes to a tire change stop, but you will quickly find that a team like sahlens does a fuel stop and changes tires faster than 90% of teams do a driver swap.

Issue #4: I love our timed pit stops. I know that as long as we aren't slacking off, we will get out in 5 minutes. I don't have to rush. Stops aren't a panic. I can check on the gopro and refill coolshirt ice. Untimed stops would be a massive pain in my behind.

Issue #5: Race on the track. Way more fun to race on the track and battle it out there than to have a race of pit crews.

 

[edit]

I realize that some of my cons are your pros... we have differing opinions here. You think it would be more fun to have a race of pit crews and drivers, while I think it is more fun to have equal stops and do all the racing on the track.. to each his own. When I see a NASCAR race and a driver who was winning ends up falling a few places because a crewman fell down, I hate it. Racing should be done on the track. I'm sure some people love seeing the faster crew gain their driver positions that he couldn't make up on the track.

Edited by enginerd
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31 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Having a number of brands to choose from removes the availability issues that may crop up with a single supplier.

 

Part of lucky dog's deal with Hankook is that they guarantee a certain number of sizes to always be in stock available for lucky dog teams. Not to say supply issues are impossible, but I haven't heard of any with LDR tires since they became the spec tire. 

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32 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Issue #1: Cars which require a lot of fuel (American iron) taking longer to fuel than a miata, leads to longer pit stops, puts them at a disadvantage compared to current situation.

Yes and no. It depends. A splash and go to make the end of the race would be preferable to 5 minutes when one only needs a few gallons. That's my biggest beef with the timed stops as it's an artificial penalty enhancer to teams that get poor mileage.

 

I can see your points and they are valid. And I too hate the "pit drama" versus on track passes. Pretty bad when they are more worried about showing pitstops between commercials rather than the other way around.

 

Let's not forget some teams don't have 5 or 6 people on hand either. While members of other teams may help out, a 2 man gang/team is really going to be disadvantaged without 5 minute stops.

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32 minutes ago, Max said:

 

Part of lucky dog's deal with Hankook is that they guarantee a certain number of sizes to always be in stock available for lucky dog teams. Not to say supply issues are impossible, but I haven't heard of any with LDR tires since they became the spec tire. 

They are purchased through LD, correct?

 

I ask as I have looked for the closest RS4 size to mine, they don't have 315/18, and I can't find their 295/18 anywhere to get a price to compare.

 

eta-Found Hankook motorsports. the 295's are about $20 more than the 315 615k's and don't have free shipping.

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2 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

Running through this in my head.

 

I would reroute everything so that the driver could connect up while driving. I would change out the harnesses but they would not be nearly as well tightened or comfortable as they are now.  

 

The coolsuit would be touch and go.

 

I would have to install a pump out fitting so we can start practicing stops.

 

We would roll the dice on a oil, and likely tires and brakes, or at least make sure everything's brand new every race start. 

 

If there was a penalty for spilling we would get dry break everything.

 

Driver safety would be compromised, fueling safety would be compromised, reliability would be compromised, costs would Increase and parity would decrease.


You would just shoot yourself in the foot with all that nonsense and put your own drivers and car at risk which would be unlikely to pan out. You're clearly just trying to prove a point. WRL teams manage it quite easily and few of them take over 3 minutes even with tire changes.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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47 minutes ago, enginerd said:

 

 

Issue #1: Cars which require a lot of fuel (American iron) taking longer to fuel than a miata, leads to longer pit stops, puts them at a disadvantage compared to current situation.

Issue #2: Safety. Rushing to fuel / speeding / not tightening belts / taking belts off early / teams forego coolshirt / etc. Imagine the first yellow flag pit stops at Watkins Glen (or any track where we have to double-stack) when 60 teams pour in for as fast as possible pit stops.

Issue #3: Sahlens will still do a 4 tire change in 20 seconds and then we're back to where we started... you proposed this rule *thinking* that you are adding minutes to a tire change stop, but you will quickly find that a team like sahlens does a fuel stop and changes tires faster than 90% of teams do a driver swap.

Issue #4: I love our timed pit stops. I know that as long as we aren't slacking off, we will get out in 5 minutes. I don't have to rush. Stops aren't a panic. I can check on the gopro and refill coolshirt ice. Untimed stops would be a massive pain in my behind.

Issue #5: Race on the track. Way more fun to race on the track and battle it out there than to have a race of pit crews.

 

[edit]

I realize that some of my cons are your pros... we have differing opinions here. You think it would be more fun to have a race of pit crews and drivers, while I think it is more fun to have equal stops and do all the racing on the track.. to each his own. When I see a NASCAR race and a driver who was winning ends up falling a few places because a crewman fell down, I hate it. Racing should be done on the track. I'm sure some people love seeing the faster crew gain their driver positions that he couldn't make up on the track.

Issue#1.  Cars can take fuel as quickly as they want.  This is actually a benefit to those cars.

 

Issue #2. Easy to overcome.  Make your seat a slider.  Tighten belts as well as you can with the seat back a bit.  Move it forward.  Belts are tight!

 

Issue #3.  They still need to change tires which is at least 20 seconds lost.  Not too hard to limit pneumatic guns at the same time.

 

Issue #4. Have the driver take a new cooler with them and plug it in...  you wanna spend time with a go pro, go ahead. .

 

 

Issue #5. No issue.  You don't want to work on your pit stops, that's cool.  Pretty much every series ever has put pit stops as an opportunity for the team to contribute. 

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21 hours ago, Jer said:

I like the approval process for tires, I will present that.  it's a great idea!!!!

 

On spec tires, I have friends who run in Lucky Dog that said it was terrible decision that alienated half the teams.  Fortunately for LD they have the market cornered in the Pacific NW.  No WRL, no AER and no Champcar.  As a series we are not in a position to continue to take financial beatings trying to make the west work.  :(

Then there are others like me that say it was a good decision to run the R-S4s in LDRL as the spec tire.

 

I'm looking at 50+ hours of wear from the set of six tires that I bought last year. $12/hr $15/hr and we're (very) competitive.

 

Edit: with LDRL car counts stronger than ever after the change to a spec tire, I find it hard to believe that "half the teams" were alienated. If people want to run other tires, they go to SD (same as EC) and aren't eligible for tire contingency awards. No other consequences.

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18 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Issue#1.  Cars can take fuel as quickly as they want.  This is actually a benefit to those cars.

 

Issue #2. Easy to overcome.  Make your seat a slider.  Tighten belts as well as you can with the seat back a bit.  Move it forward.  Belts are tight!

 

Issue #3.  They still need to change tires which is at least 20 seconds lost.  Not too hard to limit pneumatic guns at the same time.

 

Issue #4. Have the driver take a new cooler with them and plug it in...  you wanna spend time with a go pro, go ahead. .

 

 

Issue #5. No issue.  You don't want to work on your pit stops, that's cool.  Pretty much every series ever has put pit stops as an opportunity for the team to contribute. 

#1 - big car still needs twice the number of fuel jugs as a miata

#5 - every series ever has been professional.. this is an amateur series where most amateurs can't bring a whole crew to maximize fuel stops. That sounds like a serious barrier to entry.

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5 minutes ago, enginerd said:

#1 - big car still needs twice the number of fuel jugs as a miata

#5 - every series ever has been professional.. this is an amateur series where most amateurs can't bring a whole crew to maximize fuel stops. That sounds like a serious barrier to entry.

Just say Riley Motorsports will have the SuperVette gassed up with new shoes in 1 minute and you'll gain a myriad of supporters. 

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4 hours ago, the5 said:

 

RS4 is the only tire I know that lasts as long as it does. 

 

The others are all very similar maybe re71r might be a shorter outlier. 

On our car RS4s essentially never wear out, but they do turn into rocks. I'm not sure we'd run a set for more than one race weekend for this reason, so a softer tire wouldn't necessarily cost us any more. This is very heat dependent though; you'll find getting an RS4 hotter will make it get harder more quickly (per my durometer).

I've discussed autocross tires with autocrossers extensively, hoping to find one we could run on my car. RE71Rs have fairly typical life. A052s are faster wearing, and Rival 1.5 Ses are considerably slower.

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On our car the RS4 is around 4 seconds a lap slower than the Rival S at VIR. To make it simpler.....lets just say 1 second per mile of track. For us during the 24 hour race that would end up being about a 25 minute deficit to the faster tire. Simplify that and lets just say the RS-4 is 1 minute per hour slower than the faster tires. It's probably a little bit more than that, but that's my simple 6am math.

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8 hours ago, Burningham said:

 

Now you are stretching things to make your point.  I ran nothing but RE71's that weekend, we have already discussed that.

Maybe I am remembering race to race battle then, I am getting old and all my races start to blend together with highlights from some that stick out more than others. I do know I was amazed at the grip level and speed and then checked and saw re71r and it made sense.

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7 hours ago, enginerd said:

#1 - big car still needs twice the number of fuel jugs as a miata

#5 - every series ever has been professional.. this is an amateur series where most amateurs can't bring a whole crew to maximize fuel stops. That sounds like a serious barrier to entry.

#1) so fuel starved car can come and fuel in Pit lane and take say 1.5 minutes to come down pit lane and fuel.  

 

#5) Lemons is a bunch of professionals?

Does wrl do timed pit stops?

Does any other series do timed pit stops?

 

 

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9 hours ago, the5 said:

 you ban some tires, we will just choose the fastest of the alloweed tires (Which will never be the RS4 as its the slowest)

Lots of teams run Falkens, Federals, and other not as fast tires.   For sure teams going for a win will run the fastest tires, which would be a cooper or RS4(if the hot tire ban was in place).  The idea is to control the cost to parity ratio.  I think you can do that by allowing multiple tires still.

 

 

10 hours ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Yet all these points are on you and your drivers, and does help level the playing field for everyone in my mind.

5 minutes levels the playing field. 

 

With no time limit you can easily trade dollars for time and add risk for time. 

 

The teams with paid crew would blow the amateurs out of the water.

Edited by LuckyKid
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5 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Lots of teams run Falkens, Federals, and other not as fast tires.   For sure teams going for a win will run the fastest tires, which would be a cooper or RS4.  The idea is to control the cost to parity ratio.  I think you can do that by allowing multiple tires still.

 

 

5 minutes levels the playing field. 

 

With no time limit you can easily trade dollars for time and add risk for time. 

 

The teams with paid crew would blow the amateurs out of the water.

Adding risk is your perception, I would think most of our teams and owners are there to have fun, reasonable cost,wheel to wheel racing, and do as well as possible on a budget they can afford, if safety is their major concern then that would show, in that teams wouldn't enter a high speed endurance race. 

IMO, I also would like to include a 25 MPH pit speed limit does slow down pit stops for all. Hopefully giving time to put everyone in slow down mode.

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34 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Adding risk is your perception, I would think most of our teams and owners are there to have fun, reasonable cost,wheel to wheel racing, and do as well as possible on a budget they can afford, if safety is their major concern then that would show, in that teams wouldn't enter a high speed endurance race. 

IMO, I also would like to include a 25 MPH pit speed limit does slow down pit stops for all. Hopefully giving time to put everyone in slow down mode.

The pit road speed limit is already in effect for all races.

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13 hours ago, petawawarace said:

Or we could just ban the fast tires that the manufacturers are cheating the tread wear ratings all to hell.  I don’t understand why this is an issue. Everyone plays by the same rules.  

There are already lots of tires that are not legal in CC.  The only thing keeping these fast tires here is the bogus tread wear rating.  It’s that simple.  The metric that CC uses to allow tires is garbage. Let’s fix that.  

 

The UTQG treadwear rating system is not perfect - that's for sure. But there is no "cheating" going on by the manufacturers... most of the "200TW" class tires actually test significantly higher than 200 - like multiple times higher. The issue for motorsports usage of treadwear ratings is that the test is a road test, not a high slip angle and high heat environment like we use the tires in. The tires are stamped "200" because that's the marketing category that is most commonly used for motorsports.

 

Also, durometer or tread compound hardness is not an indicator of traction performance - so to use that as a rule metric would be the wrong move.

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11 hours ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

How about doing away with the 5 minute minimum pitstop? This would create more strategy as most teams today can fill up their car in about 2 or 3 minutes. Changing all tires every stop is allowed (cannot work on car while fueling is still enforced), but it takes time so each team will have to understand the tradeoff. It will also remove some advantage to small engine/big fuel tank cars so when they double-stint without fueling, it doesn't keep 2 hour fueling cars in the pits as long. And no more needing workers to keep track of pit stop time. Feels more like actual racing as well. 🤔

 

Of all the rules in ChampCar I would say that 5-minute pit stops is as close to written in stone as you will find. I would say that 5-minute pit stops, and no buying fuel are the least likely rules to ever be changed, for good or bad it is in the DNA of the series.

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16 minutes ago, collinskl1 said:

 

The UTQG treadwear rating system is not perfect - that's for sure. But there is no "cheating" going on by the manufacturers... most of the "200TW" class tires actually test significantly higher than 200 - like multiple times higher. The issue for motorsports usage of treadwear ratings is that the test is a road test, not a high slip angle and high heat environment like we use the tires in. The tires are stamped "200" because that's the marketing category that is most commonly used for motorsports.

 

Also, durometer or tread compound hardness is not an indicator of traction performance - so to use that as a rule metric would be the wrong move.

Regardless of the reason why, the problem is still the same. The UTQG rating system is garbage for our intended purposes. That's the root of this whole problem. 

 

The fact that 2 teams said they couldn't get more than 2 stints out of some tires at NCM should be a read flag that those tires are not what we want in Champcar. 

Edited by petawawarace
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Some of these proposals will have adverse effects on teams that are NOT running fast tires, but frequently change tires to get the most use out of them. They're going to be happy with the penalties they are getting by trying to keep their racing costs low. 

Some of these proposals would create an impossible situation for the series to monitor (pit marshals calling in one versus two versus no tire changes, cars speeding in paddock, etc.). 

Some of these proposals will cause an issue with availability of tires. Right now we can't get RS4s for ~4 months out of the year. That won't get any better. And the "go buy from Hankook Motorsport" isn't a solution because they don't have all sizes available. So a team will have to run a tire that's likely inferior to the RS4, or take points, or take laps, or whatever. 

 

It seems the outrage comes after a couple of teams burn through a ridiculous amount of tires at a race like what just happened at MCM. Either address those teams directly, or put in place very, very reasonable tire use limits to reign in unreasonable tire use. 

And LMAO that every time this discussion comes up, it's about three people who aggressively argue for tire "bans" or "penalties" or whatever. And one of them doesn't even race and never has. 😆

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