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14 hours ago, QuaTTro said:

of all the ideas suggested here, I think bumping the pit stop to 7 min for tire change (fuel only stays 5) is the best option yet.  for teams that plan to change tires for performance reasons it'll make them rethink the strategy.  for those of us who plan to run all day on one set but for some reason are unable to...well usually you aren't completing the tire change and fuel stop in less than 7 min anyway and likely you've accepted the drop in places cause by the unplanned tire change.

The problem is most FWD cars don't get good tire life & must change or swap them in a 8 hour race. Adding two minutes to change tires just penalize those who have to change to make it to the end. 

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This will require teams to spend more money on additional fire gear for crew. It will also be a huge issue for team mechanics working on a car. So now, that person has to be in full gear when laying u

If you make a tire change rule, keep 'em in the pit lane. We don't need people rushing around the paddock like they do in AER. Any fueling and  any tire changes must happen in pit lane, so they can be

You don’t have to. There are 100 teams out there to keep tabs on each other. Did ChampCar officials take video of a tuttle pit stop? Competitors did and then competitors filed a protest. You put in an

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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

Some of these proposals will cause an issue with availability of tires. Right now we can't get RS4s for ~4 months out of the year. That won't get any better. And the "go buy from Hankook Motorsport" isn't a solution because they don't have all sizes available. So a team will have to run a tire that's likely inferior to the RS4, or take points, or take laps, or whatever. 

With Hankook, availability within the series is very good as that is part of their commitment. They police the buying of tires for the series quite carefully to keep people from claiming that they're going to use them for LDRL but are intending to use them outside of the series.

 

The arrangement with Hankook works very well and basically guarantees the endurance tire market for Hankook in the PNW.

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Maybe I am remembering race to race battle then, I am getting old and all my races start to blend together with highlights from some that stick out more than others. I do know I was amazed at the grip level and speed and then checked and saw re71r and it made sense.

 

I think you would see we went to a wheel that is 1-1/2" wider and a tire aspect ratio 2 sizes larger than what we used to run.  That explains some of the grip, the rest is probably the fact we were indeed running the RE71 on a new surface that Barber installed before that race.  That's what I mean when I say some of my tire choice is track dependent.  As I have said before I bought 8 tires before that Barber event, mostly because there were no RS4's to be had.  We ran them there and at Road Atlanta which was an all rain/snow event and finished them off at COTA which has become a cheese grater.  I still like the flexibility of having choices for strategy.  But, I also am willing to go with whatever the membership decides, it's all good either way.  I will qualify, I would want it to be the membership that actually attends and spends money with the series, not those that only race here. 

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6 minutes ago, hotrod said:

The problem is most FWD cars don't get good tire life & must change or swap them in a 8 hour race. Adding two minutes to change tires just penalize those who have to change to make it to the end. 

We have about 9 hrs on the R-S4s and the fronts have about 30% wear. No problem doing the entire weekend on one set of tires, especially when swapping front to rear for the second day.

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10 minutes ago, mender said:

We have about 9 hrs on the R-S4s and the fronts have about 30% wear. No problem doing the entire weekend on one set of tires, especially when swapping front to rear for the second day.

The R-S4 are not available in our size.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?message=noTires&tireMake=Hankook&tireModel=Ventus+R-S4&width=205%2F&ratio=50&diameter=15&cameFrom=selectSize

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I don't have time at the moment to check but I seem to remember something about their 195s being about the same width as other manufacturers' 205s. We had been using 205s but I decided that a one-time purchase of wheels was cheaper in the long run than buying extra tires every weekend.

 

We use the 225s and 245s.

 

Edit: 195 R-S4 = 7.2" tread width; 205 RE-71R = 7.1" tread width. R-S4 is available in your "size". :) 

Edited by mender
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3 hours ago, mhr650 said:

 

Of all the rules in ChampCar I would say that 5-minute pit stops is as close to written in stone as you will find. I would say that 5-minute pit stops, and no buying fuel are the least likely rules to ever be changed, for good or bad it is in the DNA of the series.

I'm fine with it either way really; I was simply putting another option out there. As for DNA, I understand that but sometimes not changing can mean the start of a decline.

 

Another point I will bring up. Throwing a lot of money to win a race for a much less valuable trophy is fine by me. It is another option available to teams, just like some teams are using better drivers, or better engineers/engineering, or better homework, or better racecraft to gain an advantage. Why should money be penalized if we aren't going to penalize the other things? Is it OK if I hire 3 or 4 professional drivers and a pro support race team to race my car and win races?

 

ChampCar's raison de'etre is "...for people like you that have always wanted to go road racing without all of the hassles, huge rulebook or obscene expense." It doesn't say anything in there about being competitive or being able to podium without obscene expense, just to go have fun by getting into racing without too many hurdles (ruleset, monetary, bureaucratic).

Edited by dimitri.mariutto
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52 minutes ago, mender said:

With Hankook, availability within the series is very good as that is part of their commitment. They police the buying of tires for the series quite carefully to keep people from claiming that they're going to use them for LDRL but are intending to use them outside of the series.

 

The arrangement with Hankook works very well and basically guarantees the endurance tire market for Hankook in the PNW.

Yes, the series should tell the title sponsor (you know...Tire Rack) to "go screw" and encourage teams to buy tires directly from Hankook for 4-5 months out of the year. 

This is a wonderful idea. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Burningham said:

I will qualify, I would want it to be the membership that actually attends and spends money with the series, not those that only race here. 

Agree 100%. 

 

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2 hours ago, hotrod said:

The problem is most FWD cars don't get good tire life & must change or swap them in a 8 hour race. Adding two minutes to change tires just penalize those who have to change to make it to the end. 

Swapping front to back would not incur any penalty.

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52 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Yes, the series should tell the title sponsor (you know...Tire Rack) to "go screw" and encourage teams to buy tires directly from Hankook for 4-5 months out of the year. 

This is a wonderful idea. 

 

 

 

Currently, the most desirable (soft) tire in the series is not carried by the title sponsor at all. 

 

Of the allowed tire lists people have suggested, the most desirable tires are sold by the sponsor. From the sponsor standpoint this would be a gain.

 

Granted the tire rack inventory in RS4\DZ3\615K has not been enough to cover our needs every month, but with a more guaranteed market they could increase inventory to solve the issue. I find it hard to believe that Hankook got into the distributor game for profits, they would have done it across the board for all their tires. More likely they needed to do it to insure inventory, because supporting motorsports doesn't pay well enough for companies to stock the volumes we need in tires passenger cars typically don't want. Thinning the herd of tires tire rack needs to support would most likely reduce costs for them, if supporting sales for the series was their goal. 

 

What would cost them is people burning one set or less of tires a weekend, vs a few sets. If being the title sponsor allows you to crank up the consumption of your product, I think you would hear the same uproar people made when RVA was a title sponsor and  suddenly we needed regular door panel changes (from a single supplier, go figure)..... 

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I want to take this chance to thank everyone who has put forth an idea or contributed to the debate.  I think it helps members understand the pitfalls of each idea and why some of this hasn't already happened.  It also has helped with new ideas not previously considered.  The wisdom of the masses, synergy, however you want to describe it.  We truly appreciate it and I will be discussing some of the more viable ideas with the rest of the Board.  Because Chris and Tyler have both seen this thread too, they can help present the various ideas.  I'm not sure what will come of it but it will be discussed at length again.  

Edited by Jer
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15 minutes ago, Jer said:

Swapping front to back would not incur any penalty.

Yes. But unfortunately the rears get flat spotted from locking up the rear brakes. 

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2 minutes ago, hotrod said:

Yes. But unfortunately the rears get flat spotted from locking up the rear brakes. 

Only if you do that. We RARELY flat spotted tires on the Miata despite not having ABS.

 

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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

Only if you do that. We RARELY flat spotted tires on the Miata despite not having ABS.

 

The rear of a Focus is very light. We've switched to the cheapo brake pads & bias adjuster. It helped but if your not careful they will still lock up. Going to try a couple other things when we get to testing.

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1 minute ago, hotrod said:

The rear of a Focus is very light. We've switched to the cheapo brake pads & bias adjuster. It helped but if your not careful they will still lock up. Going to try a couple other things when we get to testing.

Well the point is you can do front to swap without penalty under any proposal.  If you can't take care of your tires that's on you.  

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28 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Currently, the most desirable (soft) tire in the series is not carried by the title sponsor at all. 

 

And what tire is this?

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18 minutes ago, Jer said:

Well the point is you can do front to swap without penalty under any proposal.  If you can't take care of your tires that's on you.  

Well, some proposals (not necessarily this thread, but previous ones) have said no air tools / torque wrench only / crew person has to wear a straight jacket / etc. 

So those proposals would hamper any tire moving / swapping even if it wasn’t a new tire. 

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14 hours ago, Bandit said:

They are purchased through LD, correct?

You order them from Hankook motorsports (but through the LD website), and they come branded with some kind of LD marking. 

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43 minutes ago, hotrod said:

The rear of a Focus is very light. We've switched to the cheapo brake pads & bias adjuster. It helped but if your not careful they will still lock up. Going to try a couple other things when we get to testing.

 

FWD car problems. 

 

We run 20 to 40% more front brake bias (adjustable) in the neons than stock to prevent rear tires from becoming polygons when trail braking. The other option is to soften the rear roll stiffness, but you end up compromising the handling midcorner (understeer). The obvious answer, training people to not trail brake, never seems to work......

 

You are on the right path, just need to go further.

Edited by Black Magic
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10 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

The one that kicked butt at NCM (Cooper RS3-R)

That's available on Tirerack usually.  It's a listed tire.

 

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I think Cooper just got purchased by another company. Goodyear or Goodyears parent company Sumitomo, or whoever owns them now. Coops are rebranded Avons if I remember right. So made in the UK?
 

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