Jump to content

2022 BCCR Petitions - Member comments period has opened


Recommended Posts

27 minutes ago, Bandit said:

#26 HP limit of 299whp

 

2000 pound car can have 299whp same as a 3000 pound car. I don't think I need to do the math to show why this is senseless.

 

Why not just say you don't want bigger, heavier cars running as that is what these are about as written/petitioned. (I smell GBU hate here...)

GBU did make me think of that petition. The closing speed of a car with close to 400hp to the lower hp miata na car is just insane. I would save 40+mph on some tracks going into a braking zone. I saw GBU almost destroy two cars at Indy turn one and that is when I took the notes on it.  I can see a 3000lb camaro/mustang/other with 400hp that has insane top end running into the back of a smaller car.

 

On the tires I put in a bunch of petitions on tires to give the TAC/TEch/BOD options on what could be done, if anything. I doubt anything will change, I did want to give options on possible changes though as if a petition is put forth then no change can happen. I do hope a few do stick though as we all know something needs to be done, but there is not perfect option for all. It is a hard decision they have to make, if they make one at all. I worry they will all just argue and disagree to the point of sustaining from making a decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

A 50pt turbo is worse than a cam.  You need Atleast a 70 point turbo likely a 95 point turbo to get use out of it, then the fuel consumption is still way worse than NA.  

spacer.png

 

*Richard Holdener has plenty of turbo tests on youtube, including ricer engines (J's, K's, other letters), that show a massive performance boost from just 7-8 pounds. Far more than anyone is going to get by just stabbing a cam in. No matter how big the cam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

I'm with you. Stock is stock. If we approve non-OE coolant tanks because "it's no better than stock and saves money", next year we will have 150 more petitions where people want their own model-specific exemptions on parts that "are no better than stock and save money".

What is wrong with saving money?  If I buy a new plastic expansion tank every other race at $150-200 a pop it will never fail. If I buy and alum expansion tank at $150 I good for life. I saved money and can spend on a race entry to enter another race. I see that savings as a good thing and a great business decision for Champcar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/26/2021 at 2:23 PM, ross2004 said:

Troy's throwing them out there hoping something sticks 😆

I do hope some sticks.  I feel like I am trying to be observant and look at things that can make Champcar better long term, though putting them forth other perspectives are brought up and I can see that the initial idea I had can have ramifications I did not foresee and should be shot down. Discussion is a great thing.  A few would benefit me and I put them forth to help myself and others like me. Alum rad same size and capacity as stock for zero points would save me like $300 when I need to change one. Tires are another example, to save myself money, expansion tank is yet another, but most have no affect on me or my team. The mentor program idea or rookie class idea are two I think would be nice to have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I saw GBU almost destroy two cars at Indy turn one and that is when I took the notes on it.  I can see a 3000lb camaro/mustang/other with 400hp that has insane top end running into the back of a smaller car.

There are loads of videos of BMW's, Miata's, MR2's, basically anything with wheels, taking out cars at corners in CC and any other w2w series. Since GBU ALMOST did, it and cars like it need to be banned.

 

Makes sense.

 

eta-Cars with insane closing speeds have run in CC for years. See any Daytona race. Many of them EC, so there was no issue there. A points legal car makes it an issue apparently.

 

 

Edited by Bandit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coolant pressure tanks.
This is where my friend and I disagree.

I think that's a reliability issue. One I do not have with my cooling systems. E30s, E36s, and E46s have these issues with them cracking and causing issues with their race car. I assume that some Miata's may have the same issue.

Either replace the old wear item pressure tank every year or so, or pay the price for the fancy metal one. we did not pick your car. Or, convert the car to a different type of cooling system. Put a pressure cap on the radiator, and put a simple overflow on it.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Bandit said:

spacer.png

 

*Richard Holdener has plenty of turbo tests on youtube, including ricer engines (J's, K's, other letters), that show a massive performance boost from just 7-8 pounds. Far more than anyone is going to get by just stabbing a cam in. No matter how big the cam.

Do you even race?  GTFO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Bandit said:

There are loads of videos of BMW's, Miata's, MR2's, basically anything with wheels, taking out cars at corners in CC and any other w2w series. Since GBU ALMOST did, it and cars like it need to be banned.

 

Makes sense.

 

 

I think you missed the point of speed differential, or maybe you just ignored it, either way.  How do you feel about car A going 40-50mph faster at the end of a straight than car B?  There is a big difference between two cars having contact and a car with 400hp ramming a slow car. I do not think you really need to worry as I doubt the petition will be accepted anyway.

 

2 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 we did not pick your car.

2 minutes ago, ross2004 said:

I do too, and thanks for trying to make CC better. It wasn't a jab at you. 

Cool. I was thinking you were making fun of me and it really hurt my feelings. I cried for 5 minutes straight and my eyes were puffy for hours. Glad we fixed it as I feel warm inside again, well, until I read the next post I guess. 

 

Bill Strong- Did you really just say "We did not pick your car'? You have been around long enough to know what that really means.  I can pay $150-200 every other race or pay $150 once for an alum one. That gives me more money to save for entry fees.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you allow the free reliability part, then allow a free accumulator or oil cooler. That was my argument when it was brought up in the tech desk to the CEO.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bill Strong said:

If you allow the free reliability part, then allow a free accumulator. That was my argument when it was brought up in the tech desk to the CEO.

I agree with you on that. 

 

I did think Chris's argument to have a free oil pan skip plate was exactly the same argument for an accusump with the same pros and cons. I guess since the benefits are the same then he will vote yes on an accusump this time around.

 

.A skid plate is not a ""reliability"" item in the same sense as a oil cooler or a accu-sump.  I laughed for a good 5 minutes on that one.

 

His list of benefits sure does sound exactly like benefits from an accusump. hmmm

Severely damaged engine from oil starvation-Oil on track surface-Possible FIRE from hot oil escaping the block -Potentially large cleanup fee from the track to champcar and team-Full-Course-Yellow delaying/interrupting race time for other teams-Potential accidents - Cars out of control due to slick racing surfac

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think you missed the point of speed differential, or maybe you just ignored it, either way.  How do you feel about car A going 40-50mph faster at the end of a straight than car B?  There is a big difference between two cars having contact and a car with 400hp ramming a slow car. I do not think you really need to worry as I doubt the petition will be accepted anyway.

 

I addressed this in a way in that same post;

 

eta-Cars with insane closing speeds have run in CC for years. See any Daytona race. Many of them EC, so there was no issue there. A points legal car makes it an issue apparently.

 

I'm not familiar with an example of a high powered car running over some slow hooptie out on the track.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

.A skid plate is not a ""reliability"" item in the same sense as a oil cooler or a accu-sump.  I laughed for a good 5 minutes on that one.

 

His list of benefits sure does sound exactly like benefits from an accusump. hmmm

Severely damaged engine from oil starvation-Oil on track surface-Possible FIRE from hot oil escaping the block -Potentially large cleanup fee from the track to champcar and team-Full-Course-Yellow delaying/interrupting race time for other teams-Potential accidents - Cars out of control due to slick racing surfac

One just has to remember most petitions are self serving. BMW's don't need accusump's but apparently the oil pans on lowered cars don't like curbs is how I read it.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bandit said:

I addressed this in a way in that same post;

 

eta-Cars with insane closing speeds have run in CC for years. See any Daytona race. Many of them EC, so there was no issue there. A points legal car makes it an issue apparently.

 

I'm not familiar with an example of a high powered car running over some slow hooptie out on the track.

 

Daytona is a great example. EC cars being that fast is a great example and something that should be addressed also. I know it was in the past.

 

Thank goodness we have not seen an example of a high hp high speed car hitting a miata, yet. As a driver of a miata NA in that race it was a concern for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I worry they will all just argue and disagree to the point of sustaining from making a decision.

Did you consider the option that maybe these won't be approved because, like what appears to be the majority of the membership, the BOD doesn't see an issue with the current tire rules? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Daytona is a great example. EC cars being that fast is a great example and something that should be addressed also. I know it was in the past.

 

Thank goodness we have not seen an example of a high hp high speed car hitting a miata, yet. As a driver of a miata NA in that race it was a concern for sure.

I do know if a GT1 crash into a GT5 crash at RA that took the GT5 drivers life, the GT1 driver thought he hit a deer! Back by the kink. It was a mini.. they didn't run all the GT cars together for that very reason. But the organization thought it would work.. it didn't. That being said I was apprehensive about the first race for us last fall, but after racing you all last fall in the 3 rd slowest car in the field, I am ok with it as it is.

Edited by Timothy G. Elliott
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Daytona is a great example. EC cars being that fast is a great example and something that should be addressed also. I know it was in the past.

 

Thank goodness we have not seen an example of a high hp high speed car hitting a miata, yet. As a driver of a miata NA in that race it was a concern for sure.

Most of the angst GBU has caused only came after they started winning races. I think this is telling.

 

The Camaro was about as fast but didn't win due to breakage. Few comments about it's closing speeds. A couple WRL C5's ran at RA, one was equal (faster by a couple iirc) to SuperVette on lap time, and no concerns voiced about their closing speeds but of course they were EC so they didn't matter.

 

I've noted this for quite some time. No one cares much until a car outside the chosen standards wins. Then it's bring out the pitchforks. A Miata won NCM burning through 4 sets of hot tires and I have yet to see a 20+ page thread like GBU generated when they smoked everyone.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Most of the angst GBU has caused only came after they started winning races. I think this is telling.

 

The Camaro was about as fast but didn't win due to breakage. Few comments about it's closing speeds. A couple WRL C5's ran at RA, one was equal (faster by a couple iirc) to SuperVette on lap time, and no concerns voiced about their closing speeds but of course they were EC so they didn't matter.

 

I've noted this for quite some time. No one cares much until a car outside the chosen standards wins. Then it's bring out the pitchforks. A Miata won NCM burning through 4 sets of hot tires and I have yet to see a 20+ page thread like GBU generated when they smoked everyone.

 

the GBU vette was a huge issue for a lot people the second it got unloaded out of the trailer at Daytona, it broke and sadly people just ignored it.  Mostly because log books are closed until a car is in impound.  If anyone could have looked at the log book online the day the car came thru tech there would have been an uproar that day.

 

the camaro was also making huge waves but it was retired from a crash before anything could be done.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bandit said:

Most of the angst GBU has caused only came after they started winning races. I think this is telling.

 

The Camaro was about as fast but didn't win due to breakage. Few comments about it's closing speeds. A couple WRL C5's ran at RA, one was equal (faster by a couple iirc) to SuperVette on lap time, and no concerns voiced about their closing speeds but of course they were EC so they didn't matter.

 

I've noted this for quite some time. No one cares much until a car outside the chosen standards wins. Then it's bring out the pitchforks. A Miata won NCM burning through 4 sets of hot tires and I have yet to see a 20+ page thread like GBU generated when they smoked everyone.

The way it works is that cars don’t get inspected by membership until they get to the post-race impound. And post race impound is reserved for top finishers. So the cheating wasn’t known until they started winning. See how that works?

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

The way it works is that cars don’t get inspected by membership until they get to the post-race impound. And post race impound is reserved for top finishers. So the cheating wasn’t known until they started winning. See how that works?

We didn't see the questionable parts on the Camaro until December 2019 Sebring when we saw the tech sheet and car in impound. 2 point "Ram's Horn Manifolds", unclaimed front subframe/K-member, radiator, etc.. That car also had an entire Ford 9" rear axle assembly in it that was probably over $3000 and they were claiming a differential only...which apparently was totally cool even back in 2018-2019. 

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Snorman said:

We didn't see the questionable parts on the Camaro until December 2019 Sebring when we saw the tech sheet and car in impound. 2 point "Ram's Horn Manifolds", unclaimed front subframe/K-member, radiator, etc.. That car also had an entire Ford 9" rear axle assembly in it that was probably over $3000 and they were claiming a differential only...which apparently was totally cool even back in 2018-2019. 

Don't forget about the trans....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

Don't forget about the trans....

Oh, according to Tech it was a "compliant use" even though no 350 F-body ever came with a manual transmission. 🤔

Quote

I agree the Gen 3 '88 did not have a 4 spd

 

The Gen 3  '82 did come with a 4 speed

 

So since the '88 is in the same platform as the '82 platform (gen 3 ran '82 to '92)  the tranny is a compliant use.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, enginerd said:

The way it works is that cars don’t get inspected by membership until they get to the post-race impound. And post race impound is reserved for top finishers. So the cheating wasn’t known until they started winning. See how that works?

Yes, that is how it works. My post was pointing out that closing speeds have only become an issue when a specific, points legal per tech, car happens to have those high closing speeds and WINS. Little is said about EC cars that have the same speed, yet since this car is legal class D it's "closing speed" is being used in an attempt to change the rules. In effect, banning it and cars like it. 

 

The Vette was ok'd by tech prior to ever racing, so I think calling them cheaters is rather strong. I'm curious to see how it shows up at Daytona, as frankly the C4 IRS that caused coronaries didn't gain them all that much over a well tuned C3 IRS. A couple seconds maybe at most, not 10 or some such. Certainly not worth the 100+ or so that the BoD decided such swaps cost after bending to the peanut gallery.

 

Concerning a 9" rear end; 

• Differential swap: 25pts for any diff not originally available for your year, make, and model or chassis generation (excluding specialty highperformance models not listed on the VPI table). Includes axles and CV’s. 

 

The rules are very import centric, so there is no listing for a solid rear axle. How else would a rear end swap be valued? On an IRS you get the diff, housing and axles. Shouldn't a 9" be the same?

Edited by Bandit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...