Jump to content

2022 BCCR Petitions - Member comments period has opened


Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Once again, we are back to the topic - what does champcar want to police? Cost or performance? 

It's an important decision we keep dancing around. Only one can be number one.

Still dancing.

spacer.png

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Jer said:

We aren't listening to the loudest voice.  The comments from the masses in number of comments has favored no more free stuff. 

my example was for points based classes. I think most like it, it will work great long term, but a few complained loud and got to be dismissed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Jer said:

I take great offense at your statement.  Your "common sense stance" is what, exactly?  I see arguments for both sides.  Your common sense might someone else's folly.   Obviously we will not let a subgroup dictate to the whole org in the terms you laid out. 

Great offense? What did I say that is so offensive? I simply sought to understand your statement that you 'will ALWAYS vote in the majority". You even all-capped the word 'always'. Ok then, so if enough of the BoD votes like this, then I can assemble my coalition of a majority of members to get petitions accepted with the coalitions best interests in mind.


Common sense means sound judgement. As I stated, the BoD should not necessarily be voting with the majority for petitions/rules but with the intent to not disenfranchise any group, no matter how tiny a minority they are.

 

I don't get the hostility coming from a Board member. Were you a leader in SCCA previously?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Bandit said:

I don't know your position on this, but in my opinion that is why IRS swaps are now ten points per part.

 

50 points was a reasonable hit for the performance gain. 100+ isn't. Yet the pitchforks were out on the forum and the BoD folded.

Basically, because that was an arbitrary value made up.  

 

The rules actually state 10 pts for a suspension part. 

 

Some Racers just wanted the bccr enforced on that one.

 

Some Racers also think the 2.5 or hubs are bull cookies.  How they aren't 10 pts is beyond me.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Grant said:

Anyone who doesn't change stock front NA/B hubs after every race is nuts, or really slow.

We pound the rumble strips.  I used to rebuild them myself after every race now we send them to final turn motorsports.  We had one fail after about a season and a half.   That said we were only running the 245 RS4s not the Rivals like we do now.

 

The trick is making sure you're getting a new casting that is the correct design, not undercut, and make sure to inspect them.  

 

That said I always make sure I have an extra hub in the pits just in case. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Once again, we are back to the topic - what does champcar want to police? Cost or performance? 

It's an important decision we keep dancing around. Only one can be number one.

I agree....  one way to help would be to allow relaibility items for free.

 

At the same time, Jack up (double?) The points for items that make the car faster.

 

Troy gets his free reliability, and no speed creep because those excess points are now used.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm in favor of many of the petitions trying to control tire costs, but the Board cannot seem to come to a consensus.  If we outlaw certain tires, it will become a whack-a-mole situation.  Any teams holding those tires will be pissed, especially if one particular tire works best for their particular car.  A spec tire would solve some problems and create others.  Limit pit stop tire changes to one per stop?  What about rain? How much rain triggers the ability to change all tires?  Changing tires in the paddock will likely result in unsafe pit stops because Champcar doesn't have people policing the paddock, checking for visors down, fire bottle guy, etc.  Maybe require all fueling to be on pit road, all tire changes in the paddock?  What about a flat?  Easy to say something needs to be done, harder to actually come up with a solution.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I agree....  one way to help would be to allow relaibility items for free.

 

At the same time, Jack up (double?) The points for items that make the car faster.

 

Troy gets his free reliability, and no speed creep because those excess points are now used.


I'm not really opposed to any of that, I've always been an advocate of leveling performance #1 and cost #2, and stop worrying about policing cheap reliability parts.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Jer said:

I'm in favor of many of the petitions trying to control tire costs, but the Board cannot seem to come to a consensus.  If we outlaw certain tires, it will become a whack-a-mole situation.  Any teams holding those tires will be pissed, especially if one particular tire works best for their particular car.  A spec tire would solve some problems and create others.  Limit pit stop tire changes to one per stop?  What about rain? How much rain triggers the ability to change all tires?  Changing tires in the paddock will likely result in unsafe pit stops because Champcar doesn't have people policing the paddock, checking for visors down, fire bottle guy, etc.  Maybe require all fueling to be on pit road, all tire changes in the paddock?  What about a flat?  Easy to say something needs to be done, harder to actually come up with a solution.  

I think you answered it yourself.

 

Pit for tires in paddock.  Pit for fuel in Pit lane. Can change 1 tire on pitlane at a time.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I agree....  one way to help would be to allow relaibility items for free.

 

At the same time, Jack up (double?) The points for items that make the car faster.

 

Troy gets his free reliability, and no speed creep because those excess points are now used.

The horse is out of the barn on free speed. Will the BoD corral it?

 

To reiterate, certain cars don't need the reliability items yet get to enjoy all the free/cheap speed parts. Is it any wonder the points values are inverted from what one would expect?

 

A BMW owner doesn't think Accusump's should be free, yet wants a free skid plate for his lowered oil pan. hmmmm....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

I think you answered it yourself.

 

Pit for tires in paddock.  Pit for fuel in Pit lane. Can change 1 tire on pitlane at a time.

That's my opinion.  Like I said, though, the Board cannot seem to come to a consensus on it.  Some don't even see the problem.  Most do see the problem, but what to do about it is difficult.  I believe we have a big problem.  The Cost of tires is out of control.  To win, some believe you must run tires that last only 6-7 hours.  In many cases they are probably right.  WTF Miata was going through tires at NCM like crazy!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Bandit said:

The horse is out of the barn on free speed. Will the BoD corral it?

 

To reiterate, certain cars don't need the reliability items yet get to enjoy all the free/cheap speed parts. Is it any wonder the points values are inverted from what one would expect?

 

A BMW owner doesn't think Accusump's should be free, yet wants a free skid plate for his lowered oil pan. hmmmm....

Yep.  I don't need any of those things either.

 

However, doubling the performance parts would crush my car.

 

I still think it's the right way to go.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I think you answered it yourself.

 

Pit for tires in paddock.  Pit for fuel in Pit lane. Can change 1 tire on pitlane at a time.

On tires.

 

XYZ tires get a penalty lap and the rest do not. We all know what tires are XYZ.

 

you can not change tires and fuel in the same pit stop.

If you do change tires no air guns and only one side of the car can be jacked up at at time.

 

Easy and done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Bandit said:

A BMW owner doesn't think Accusump's should be free, yet wants a free skid plate for his lowered oil pan. hmmmm....

I am glad I am not the only one who saw that. We disagree on a lot and have enjoyable discussions back and forth, but we agree on that one so that must say something.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bandit said:

The horse is out of the barn on free speed. Will the BoD corral it?

By choosing no free reliability items the Board is trying to accomplish just that.  I understand both sides of the arguments which is why I'm firmly on the fence on these items.  As a former car owner I could choose reliability or speed.  I wanted to win, so I chose speed.  Unfortunately that led to multiple motor, trans and diff failures.  Enough so I said screw it and sold my car.  I towed that sucker over 160 hours last year to various racetracks.  This year I will not field even a single team.  Fast drivers want a chance to win, not just putter around the track.  It was my decision, I own it, but it also led to a car being parted out.  Other teams make other decisions (and generally don't win).  I also understand that making reliability items free will free up money to go faster.  This has been the at war question asked of members for years.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

Great offense? What did I say that is so offensive? I simply sought to understand your statement that you 'will ALWAYS vote in the majority". You even all-capped the word 'always'. Ok then, so if enough of the BoD votes like this, then I can assemble my coalition of a majority of members to get petitions accepted with the coalitions best interests in mind.


Common sense means sound judgement. As I stated, the BoD should not necessarily be voting with the majority for petitions/rules but with the intent to not disenfranchise any group, no matter how tiny a minority they are.

 

I don't get the hostility coming from a Board member. Were you a leader in SCCA previously?

You should run for the Board and see the pounding we take.  Frankly I'm surprised anyone ever wants to serve.  I love this series and want to see it succeed, so it's worth it.  Barely.  My expertise is more on the financial side, not on the technical side.  When you present an argument, showing extremes doesn't help.  We will never outlaw one marquee because a small majority ask for it.  On reliability, it is a very split membership.  

50 minutes ago, Bandit said:

No, I'm not off base.

 

50 points is reasonable. 100+, as decided by the board, is not.

 

An IRS is more valuable than a turbo? Right.....

If we added up all the changed parts it would have been even more.  I believe the tally was 150 points or so.  We tried to strike a balance.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I am glad I am not the only one who saw that. We disagree on a lot and have enjoyable discussions back and forth, but we agree on that one so that must say something.

Just quit hating on the big cars and their big tahrs and we'll get along great. 😎

 

100% agreement on the hot tire issue.

 

And btw-I think the MR2's are great. Something different than the sea of hairdresser cars and yuppiemobiles.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Jer said:

That's my opinion.  Like I said, though, the Board cannot seem to come to a consensus on it.  Some don't even see the problem.  Most do see the problem, but what to do about it is difficult.  I believe we have a big problem.  The Cost of tires is out of control.  To win, some believe you must run tires that last only 6-7 hours.  In many cases they are probably right.  WTF Miata was going through tires at NCM like crazy!  

 

If the majority believes there's a problem, that's step one.

 

Step two is the solution.  There are many ways to resolve this, it might be an intellectual challenge but it certainly possible.

 

I personally don't believe whack-a-mole would be that difficult. How often did they come out with new tires, maybe two a year?   By delaying the roll out you can resolve the issue of people having tires in stock.  It's going to be real issue when some people have the discontinued tires and other don't. 

 

 It's possible that Cooper may have temporarily resolved this problem by making a fast tire that has okay wear properties, but not all sizes are out yet.  I'm going to be out about 2 grand for Road America just on tires.  It's trading dollars for 2 seconds a lap. It's not fair. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bandit said:

Just quit hating on the big cars and their big tahrs and we'll get along great. 😎

 

100% agreement on the hot tire issue.

 

And btw-I think the MR2's are great. Something different than the sea of hairdresser cars and yuppiemobiles.

I do not have the big cars, big girls are a lot of fun. I have had some of my best memories racing the USS enterprise. The issue is physics, the higher weight and higher top end speed coming into a turn is a concern. I do not see your car as this issue though, no offensive, yours just does not have the crazy top end speed. I do not see you close to 400hp and are in the 300hp range if I guessed.

 

BTW- I had two MR2's and the first one, Bio 1.0, has been totally dismantled and all safety items saved for my new build that will be at WGI. She just need to much to fix it yet again and chassis issues. When I took here apart this time I found a massive crack in the front crossbeam and now know why she would do different things in different turns, she had dynamtic toe/camber/caster.  Now I will have an MR2 and a SSP (super secret project). hehe. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

 

If the majority believes there's a problem, that's step one.

 

Step two is the solution.  There are many ways to resolve this, it might be an intellectual challenge but it certainly possible.

 

I personally don't believe whack-a-mole would be that difficult. How often did they come out with new tires, maybe two a year?   By delaying the roll out you can resolve the issue of people having tires in stock.  It's going to be real issue when some people have the discontinued tires and other don't. 

 

 It's possible that Cooper may have temporarily resolved this problem by making a fast tire that has okay wear properties, but not all sizes are out yet.  I'm going to be out about 2 grand for Road America just on tires.  It's trading dollars for 2 seconds a lap. It's not fair. 

Agreed!  The arms war keeps getting harder and harder.

 

We will discuss all the propositions next week I believe.  Not sure which petitions we will review first, it generally takes multiple meetings.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee
8 minutes ago, Jer said:

You should run for the Board and see the pounding we take.  Frankly I'm surprised anyone ever wants to serve.  I love this series and want to see it succeed, so it's worth it.  Barely.  My expertise is more on the financial side, not on the technical side.  When you present an argument, showing extremes doesn't help.  We will never outlaw one marquee because a small majority ask for it.  On reliability, it is a very split membership.  

If we added up all the changed parts it would have been even more.  I believe the tally was 150 points or so.  We tried to strike a balance.  

Hang in there @Jer

We appreciate all that you do and fight for.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Jer said:

If we outlaw certain tires, it will become a whack-a-mole situation. 

No need to whack-a-mole. Just have a list of approved tires and update that as information comes in.

 

615k/RS4/VR1 for example are known quantities and cover all sizes needed as far as I know. There may be a couple others that also fit, this is just an example.

 

6 months from now say Hankook comes out with a RS4r. It does not go on the approved list until there is data showing it's treadwear in actual use. Grassroots generally tests all the tires when they come out and people know pretty quickly what the characteristics of a new tire are.

 

As has been discussed earlier, it is not about performance, but rather cost when it comes to tires. 

 

I'd rather not spend 3 times the entry fee on tires just to be competitive.

 

Lucky Dog went to the RS4 as essentially a spec tire. They didn't do it because of it's speed. I don't advocate a spec tire, but have 3 or 4 different brands to choose from keeps costs in line and allows choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I've had to remind the Board of is we can make rules regardless of whether a petition is presented.  If the members don't like our decisions, they can vote us out.  I will push the tire change thing so that tire changes have to occur in the paddock and fueling HAS to be done on pit road, but I can already point out a couple of pitfalls. 

 

1) some jackass in a tunaslapper runs into your car while you are battling for a podium finish and now a tire is cut down.  Making that team go to the paddock in that situation takes them out of the running.  is that fair?  One tire change?  Hw about two tires changed?

 

2) Teams are poor and think MAYBE they can get one race out of a set of used RS4s.  They are wrong, and now they have to go to the paddock to put other used tires on.  

 

In both situations you've hurt someone's ability and desire to compete.  Sure it stops teams from putting new RE71s on every stop (and there have been multiple teams that have done that), but what about the collateral damage?  

 

Maybe we allow one tire to be changed on pit road, but more than one require a trip to the paddock.  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Jer said:

As a former car owner I could choose reliability or speed.  I wanted to win, so I chose speed.  Unfortunately that led to multiple motor, trans and diff failures.  Enough so I said screw it and sold my car. 

Sounds like a good argument for cheaper reliability and more costly performance. I guarantee you are not the only one that has made the same decision and it's unfortunate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...