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9 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Lucky Dog went to the RS4 as essentially a spec tire. They didn't do it because of it's speed. I don't advocate a spec tire, but have 3 or 4 different brands to choose from keeps costs in line and allows choice.

I like the approval process for tires, I will present that.  it's a great idea!!!!

 

On spec tires, I have friends who run in Lucky Dog that said it was terrible decision that alienated half the teams.  Fortunately for LD they have the market cornered in the Pacific NW.  No WRL, no AER and no Champcar.  As a series we are not in a position to continue to take financial beatings trying to make the west work.  :(

Edited by Jer
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This will require teams to spend more money on additional fire gear for crew. It will also be a huge issue for team mechanics working on a car. So now, that person has to be in full gear when laying u

If you make a tire change rule, keep 'em in the pit lane. We don't need people rushing around the paddock like they do in AER. Any fueling and  any tire changes must happen in pit lane, so they can be

You don’t have to. There are 100 teams out there to keep tabs on each other. Did ChampCar officials take video of a tuttle pit stop? Competitors did and then competitors filed a protest. You put in an

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1 minute ago, Bandit said:

Sounds like a good argument for cheaper reliability and more costly performance. I guarantee you are not the only one that has made the same decision and it's unfortunate.

I would agree with this.  It's hard though to tell a team that sits at 499 points that they are now pointed at 599 points, but hey, free reliability items! No matter what you do, you piss off a large contingent of teams, create rules instability and then have to deal with the fallout which we may not even see just yet.  For example, one marquee benefits greatly from the free reliability items while another does not.  You've just pushed one marquee to the top and alienated others.  sigh.  

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12 minutes ago, Jer said:

One thing I've had to remind the Board of is we can make rules regardless of whether a petition is presented.  If the members don't like our decisions, they can vote us out.  I will push the tire change thing so that tire changes have to occur in the paddock and fueling HAS to be done on pit road, but I can already point out a couple of pitfalls. 

 

1) some jackass in a tunaslapper runs into your car while you are battling for a podium finish and now a tire is cut down.  Making that team go to the paddock in that situation takes them out of the running.  is that fair?  One tire change?  Hw about two tires changed?

 

2) Teams are poor and think MAYBE they can get one race out of a set of used RS4s.  They are wrong, and now they have to go to the paddock to put other used tires on.  

 

In both situations you've hurt someone's ability and desire to compete.  Sure it stops teams from putting new RE71s on every stop (and there have been multiple teams that have done that), but what about the collateral damage?  

 

Maybe we allow one tire to be changed on pit road, but more than one require a trip to the paddock.  

Two rules should fix it I think.

1-If you run certain tires you get a lap penalty, maybe a multiplier based on race length and/or track length. A lap at Nelsons it not equal to lap at Road America.

2- You can not change tires in the pit stop that you take fuel, no air guns, only one side of the car jacked up at time.

-exception is you can change a single tire only during a fuel stop if that tire is flat.

 

That should fix most of the fast tire issues. RS4 tires do not need to stop to change a tire and are slower. The faster tires are faster and can make up the lap and more if pushed.

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14 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Sounds like a good argument for cheaper reliability and more costly performance. I guarantee you are not the only one that has made the same decision and it's unfortunate.

I'm against free mods for reliability, but I could get behind low point costs, especially if performance adders become more expensive.

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3 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Two rules should fix it I think.

1-If you run certain tires you get a lap penalty, maybe a multiplier based on race length and/or track length. A lap at Nelsons it not equal to lap at Road America.

2- You can not change tires in the pit stop that you take fuel, no air guns, only one side of the car jacked up at time.

-exception is you can change a single tire only during a fuel stop if that tire is flat.

 

That should fix most of the fast tire issues. RS4 tires do not need to stop to change a tire and are slower. The faster tires are faster and can make up the lap and more if pushed.

1) is out of the question because of the whack a mole side of that.  I actually asked the Board to ban the RE71 a year ago, was swiftly shot down and with valid reasons so that won't happen.  I do like 2) and will champion it.  

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12 minutes ago, Jer said:

I would agree with this.  It's hard though to tell a team that sits at 499 points that they are now pointed at 599 points, but hey, free reliability items! No matter what you do, you piss off a large contingent of teams, create rules instability and then have to deal with the fallout which we may not even see just yet.  For example, one marquee benefits greatly from the free reliability items while another does not.  You've just pushed one marquee to the top and alienated others.  sigh.  

Not that it would be easy, but the issue of some marquee benefiting and others not could be addressed by tweeking VPI related to reliability.  Again, not easy, I'm not volunteering to be a punching bag when the adjustments go against someone, but that could align things.

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3 minutes ago, tommytipover said:

If you make a tire change rule, keep 'em in the pit lane. We don't need people rushing around the paddock like they do in AER. Any fueling and  any tire changes must happen in pit lane, so they can be monitored.

How about each tire change adds one minute to your stop minimum?  If you are changing tires only (no fuel), tough, you still have to sit for 5 minutes plus one minute per tire.  Of course the issue is enforcement.  How long is on the timer?  What if a team doesn't know they have to change a tire until the car comes in and they see one corded?  The possibilities freeze the Board on what exactly to do.  I understand we don't want people speeding through the paddock to change tires.  That might be easier to enforce though (speed limits).  I would hope that by greatly increasing time to change tires, it might not be worth running the hot tire of the day that quits after 2 stints (see RPM at NCM, changing two tires every other stop).  Maybe require the driver change to be on pit road too, else you will have teams fuel in 40 seconds, then hustle the car to the paddock for tires and driver change.  

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16 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

2- You can not change tires in the pit stop that you take fuel, no air guns, only one side of the car jacked up at time.

-exception is you can change a single tire only during a fuel stop if that tire is flat.

 

That should fix most of the fast tire issues. RS4 tires do not need to stop to change a tire and are slower. The faster tires are faster and can make up the lap and more if pushed.

#2 is interesting... 

No fuel during a tire stop, no air guns (meaning 4-ways, or ratchets only?!!!!), 1 side up at a time, + 1 jack allowed over the wall. (Plus possibly 1 set of tools, so only 1 tire can be worked on at a time?)

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Tire rules are tricky. Our front wheel drive car gets about six hours on the fronts. We run a modest 225/50 15. If we had to make another stop after fueling to change tires that would take us out of having a chance. We can go two hours on fuel so that gives us a chance at the end of the race because the faster cars have to pit more often. 

Not a fan of changing tires in the paddock all stops should be done on pit lane where everyone can see you. Plus we don't need race cars speeding through the paddock.

Maybe the thing to do is limit tire size & width? I don't have an idea as to what because I don't know what teams are running. If you run a wider tire than stated add points or laps.

It's hard to change a tire rule or control tires once the barn door is left fully  open.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Jer said:

How about each tire change adds one minute to your stop minimum?  If you are changing tires only (no fuel), tough, you still have to sit for 5 minutes plus one minute per tire.  Of course the issue is enforcement.  How long is on the timer?  

This one is interesting too.

Perhaps set all the timers to 7 minutes. (or agree on a set time)

Fuel only stops = 5 minutes

Fuel/tire stops = 7 minutes

 

Pit marshals often radio to pit out if a team took fuel or driver change only - the onus would be on them and pit out, to know what each team did for fuel/tires.

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Just now, mcoppola said:

This one is interesting too.

Perhaps set all the toimers to 7 minutes. (or agree on a set time)

Fuel only stops = 5 minutes

Fuel/tire stops = 7 minutes

great suggestion!  I like it!  But then do you have to declare whether or not you are changing tires at pit in?

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4 minutes ago, hotrod said:

Tire rules are tricky. Our front wheel drive car gets about six hours on the fronts. We run a modest 225/50 15. If we had to make another stop after fueling to change tires that would take us out of having a chance. We can go two hours on fuel so that gives us a chance at the end of the race because the faster cars have to pit more often. 

Not a fan of changing tires in the paddock all stops should be done on pit lane where everyone can see you. Plus we don't need race cars speeding through the paddock.

Maybe the thing to do is limit tire size & width? I don't have an idea as to what because I don't know what teams are running. If you run a wider tire than stated add points or laps.

It's hard to change a tire rule or control tires once the barn door is left fully  open.

The wider tires help tire life, not so much lap time.

 

Limiting tire width will make this problem worse.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Jer said:

great suggestion!  I like it!  But then do you have to declare whether or not you are changing tires at pit in?

I added to the post above;

"Pit marshals often radio to pit out if a team took fuel or driver change only - the onus would be on them and pit out, to know what each team did for fuel/tires."

 

edit: So Pit In sets all timers to 7 ?? minutes, and enforcement/decision is made at pit out.

 

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Just now, mcoppola said:

I added to he post above;

"Pit marshals often radio to pit out if a team took fuel or driver change only - the onus would be on them and pit out, to know what each team did for fuel/tires."

 

yes but a five minute timer shows zero.  So were they actually in for seven minutes? One solution would be to set all timers at 7 minutes, the team declares at pit out whether they got tires, fuel or neither.  

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2 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

The wider tires help tire life, not so much lap time.

 

Limiting tire width will make this problem worse.

The Miata on hot 205's at NCM is a good example.

 

Smart on their part as they were willing to spend the money. Less rotating mass and super sticky tires are fast when you change them at a rate equivalent to Nascar.

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Just now, Jer said:

yes but a five minute timer shows zero.  So were they actually in for seven minutes? One solution would be to set all timers at 7 minutes, the team declares at pit out whether they got tires, fuel or neither.  

Yep, race control and competitors could and will point out if a team is giving Pit Out the correct info , just as it is done with fuel now.

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For those pushing a “do this in pits, do that in paddock”, that’s cool but have a plan for races like Harris Hill. Paddock=pits. 

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

especially if one particular tire works best for their particular car

 

Amazing how before the spending went up in champcar we all seemed to survive on Faulkin, Star Specs and the Old BFG (hard) compound. Must have been a great era of tire design.....

 

Or the claim that a reasonable tire (or one off a list of reasonable tires), is incapable of working on your car is a sign of your inability to tune your car, or the need to lean on a purchased advantage to be competitive. Might as well offer laps back for charity contributions, so at least the spend to win offers some social benefit. 

 

If nothing else, if the series considers a "lower prep" class or series of classes then make a tire list for those. That way the spenders can race in the $$ class and those of us looking to compete on more reasonable means can have our own sandbox. 

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Just now, Black Magic said:

 

Amazing how before the spending went up in champcar we all seemed to survive on Faulkin, Star Specs and the Old BFG (hard) compound. Must have been a great era of tire design.....

 

Or the claim that a reasonable tire (or one off a list of reasonable tires), is incapable of working on your car is a sign of your inability to tune your car, or the need to lean on a purchased advantage to be competitive. Might as well offer laps back for charity contributions, so at least the spend to win offers some social benefit. 

Amazing that it used to be if you ran all race without an issue, you were guaranteed a top 5 finish.  Now you can run the whole race issue-free and get 35th.  Our series has had incredible speed creep, even just that creep unrelated to the rule book based on some teams doing tires test, wind tunnel tests, and driver improvement.  I guess that was inevitable.  

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

If we added up all the changed parts it would have been even more.  I believe the tally was 150 points or so.  We tried to strike a balance.  

(the above was referring to IRS swap)

This is where tech / board? (I don't know how much authority the BoD had here) should have said "oh well, that IRS swap sure added a ton of points, you probably shouldn't have installed it". Instead a new rule was made to give them an a-la-carte discount.

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Every single tire rule has downfalls and exceptions. 

 

- For FWD cars, if you limit it to 1 tire change per stop, what happens if I want to swap front to back? How can the pit marshals see this?  

- Same issue with only hand tools. I want to rotate my tires front to back (which is well within the spirit of champcar) but now I have to do it with hand tools? WTF? Thats stupid.

- Only allowing tire changes in the Paddock will be a disaster. So many things wrong with that IMO.

- Penalty lap for using the hot tires. What happens if someone starts on the RS4s and then switches out to RE71s or rivals? Who keeps track of this?

 

The only solution that will really work is to ban certain "Hot" tires, or to have a list of approved tires. If there is a years warning, that will allow teams to plan ahead.  If you run a non-approved tire, you get pushed to EC. Its so simple.

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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

(the above was referring to IRS swap)

This is where tech / board? (I don't know how much authority the BoD had here) should have said "oh well, that IRS swap sure added a ton of points, you probably shouldn't have installed it". Instead a new rule was made to give them an a-la-carte discount.

Perfect example of what we get to deal with in this exact thread.  One guy is pissed that IRS was 100 points, another thinks it should have been higher.  I believe I argued it SHOULD be a piecemeal charge.  LOL

 

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