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2 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Every single tire rule has downfalls and exceptions. 

 

- For FWD cars, if you limit it to 1 tire change per stop, what happens if I want to swap front to back? How can the pit marshals see this?  

- Same issue with only hand tools. I want to rotate my tires front to back (which is well within the spirit of champcar) but now I have to do it with hand tools? WTF? Thats stupid.

- Only allowing tire changes in the Paddock will be a disaster. So many things wrong with that IMO.

- Penalty lap for using the hot tires. What happens if someone starts on the RS4s and then switches out to RE71s or rivals? Who keeps track of this?

 

The only solution that will really work is to ban certain "Hot" tires, or to have a list of approved tires. If there is a years warning, that will allow teams to plan ahead.  If you run a non-approved tire, you get pushed to EC. Its so simple.

Who decides which tires to ban? Some tires are faster on certain marquees and not so fast on others.  Some tires are size limited too.  But I love the conversation!  Some good ideas coming out of it, keep them coming!!!  So far I like the 7 minute stop if you take NEW tires.  Teams do a great job of policing each other.  

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This will require teams to spend more money on additional fire gear for crew. It will also be a huge issue for team mechanics working on a car. So now, that person has to be in full gear when laying u

If you make a tire change rule, keep 'em in the pit lane. We don't need people rushing around the paddock like they do in AER. Any fueling and  any tire changes must happen in pit lane, so they can be

You don’t have to. There are 100 teams out there to keep tabs on each other. Did ChampCar officials take video of a tuttle pit stop? Competitors did and then competitors filed a protest. You put in an

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18 minutes ago, Jer said:

How about each tire change adds one minute to your stop minimum?

 

Indirect rule trying to address a direct issue. Those always end up in heartache, although the initial rollout is politically easier. I worry it will come back to hurt us.

 

If we don't want someone burning up tires that most teams cannot get reasonable run time on, and we fear this will change the finances of the series, I think you would be best to tackle it straight on. Otherwise when someone figures out a fast way to change one tire at a time, behind the wall, while doing whatever rub tummy and pat head rule we develop, you will be back at the same crossroads. 

 

We have had tire limits for a long time, we just chose a poor metric for our pass fail criteria (UTGG numbers are crap). I think if we had allowed any DOT tire in the chumpcar era your would face the same opposition going to a 200 TW limit rule, the people with the money to feed the grip addiction don't want to move to the methadone tire...... Look at SCCA AutoX and what happened to stock classed cars running hoosiers, you can put the genie back in the bottle. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Jer said:

Perfect example of what we get to deal with in this exact thread.  One guy is pissed that IRS was 100 points, another thinks it should have been higher.  I believe I argued it SHOULD be a piecemeal charge.  LOL

My issue isn't the final points amount (50 pts? 200 pts? couldn't care less), it is that a rule already existed which valued this modification but it wasn't used. Piecemeal is the right way to do it because it is the rule which already exists.

Edited by enginerd
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7 minutes ago, Jer said:

Who decides which tires to ban? Some tires are faster on certain marquees and not so fast on others.  Some tires are size limited too.  But I love the conversation!  Some good ideas coming out of it, keep them coming!!!  So far I like the 7 minute stop if you take NEW tires.  Teams do a great job of policing each other.  

Personally I’m in favour of a list of approved tires.  If someone wants a tire added to the list, make them run it on a car in EC and keep an eye on it for wear and speed.  

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15 minutes ago, enginerd said:

(the above was referring to IRS swap)

This is where tech / board? (I don't know how much authority the BoD had here) should have said "oh well, that IRS swap sure added a ton of points, you probably shouldn't have installed it". Instead a new rule was made to give them an a-la-carte discount.

non OE turbo's include intake and header(s) so its not without precedent. And a flat point cost makes sense as various IRS systems have different numbers of parts.

 

I still say 100 is too much for the performance gain of an IRS. Other than a couple cars it probably doesn't really matter much in the end.

 

I thought they, IRS systems, were piecemeal. hah

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

My issue isn't the final points amount (50 pts? 200 pts? couldn't care less), it is that a rule already existed which valued this modification but it wasn't used. Piecemeal is the right way to do it because it is the rule which already exists.

When asked by Tech/BOD how the C4 IRS conversion should be assessed, TAC member responses echoed this line of thinking. Several of us arrived at 105-110 points when using current BCCR verbiage.

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16 minutes ago, Jer said:

Amazing that it used to be if you ran all race without an issue, you were guaranteed a top 5 finish.  Now you can run the whole race issue-free and get 35th.  Our series has had incredible speed creep, even just that creep unrelated to the rule book based on some teams doing tires test, wind tunnel tests, and driver improvement.  I guess that was inevitable.  

 

The speed development was going to happen. The rate of expansion climbed as our allowed raced power and prep of cars changed quickly in the 2015+ fixed vpi reductions. 

 

For the tire conversation, I fail to see how the speed development of the cars has made the higher operational temp range, longer wearing tires incapable of working on a car where softer, less temp tolerant faster tires do. For a brief window it allowed some small cars to run narrower wheels at the same or better grip than wider RS4, but with the cooper tires in 245 that ship has sailed. 

 

Questioning the engineering logic that someone needs RE71 tires to compete because Rs4 would wear too fast, overheat too easily, be more likely to blister or chunk, come in a size not offered (re71 has less offerings), or somehow cause their car to flip over and catch on fire. 

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16 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

I think if we had allowed any DOT tire in the chumpcar era your would face the same opposition going to a 200 TW limit rule, the people with the money to feed the grip addiction don't want to move to the methadone tire.

I'm heartened by the fact there are at least 2 in this thread that run hot tires, and have had success on them, advocating for them to go away.

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22 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Every single tire rule has downfalls and exceptions. 

 

- For FWD cars, if you limit it to 1 tire change per stop, what happens if I want to swap front to back? How can the pit marshals see this?  

- Same issue with only hand tools. I want to rotate my tires front to back (which is well within the spirit of champcar) but now I have to do it with hand tools? WTF? Thats stupid.

- Only allowing tire changes in the Paddock will be a disaster. So many things wrong with that IMO.

- Penalty lap for using the hot tires. What happens if someone starts on the RS4s and then switches out to RE71s or rivals? Who keeps track of this?

 

The only solution that will really work is to ban certain "Hot" tires, or to have a list of approved tires. If there is a years warning, that will allow teams to plan ahead.  If you run a non-approved tire, you get pushed to EC. Its so simple.

What tires? A good portion of the field runs re71r, rivals, coopers, V730, V660, ect?

 

What are the approved the tires? I really only see like 3 RS4, 615k or vr1. That really means everyone will need to be on RS4 and we become a spec tire series, which most are saying heck no to.

 

I still do not understand why people are against giving laps to cars with those tires. If someone wants to choose those tires and try to make up that time, then that is their choice. I still think they will make it up and can win, it just gives the low budget teams a chance.

 

I also wonder why we can not find a common ground on tires and rules. There are exceptions to all rules. FWD, using up old tires, change front to back, ect. There is no perfect rule, but I feel it needs to be addressed and a best solution needs to happen.

 

I do not think it is fair for a team to spend $2000+3000 a weekend on tires versus someone spending $400 on tires. I know money rules in motorsports, but I think Champcar can try to even the playing field some. 

22 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Every single tire rule has downfalls and exceptions. 

 

- For FWD cars, if you limit it to 1 tire change per stop, what happens if I want to swap front to back? How can the pit marshals see this?  

- Same issue with only hand tools. I want to rotate my tires front to back (which is well within the spirit of champcar) but now I have to do it with hand tools? WTF? Thats stupid.

- Only allowing tire changes in the Paddock will be a disaster. So many things wrong with that IMO.

- Penalty lap for using the hot tires. What happens if someone starts on the RS4s and then switches out to RE71s or rivals? Who keeps track of this?

 

The only solution that will really work is to ban certain "Hot" tires, or to have a list of approved tires. If there is a years warning, that will allow teams to plan ahead.  If you run a non-approved tire, you get pushed to EC. Its so simple.

What tires? A good portion of the field runs re71r, rivals, coopers, V730, V660, ect?

 

What are the approved the tires? I really only see like 3 RS4, 615k or vr1. That really means everyone will need to be on RS4 and we become a spec tire series, which most are saying heck no to.

 

I still do not understand why people are against giving laps to cars with those tires. If someone wants to choose those tires and try to make up that time, then that is their choice. I still think they will make it up and can win, it just gives the low budget teams a chance.

 

I also wonder why we can not find a common ground on tires and rules. There are exceptions to all rules. FWD, using up old tires, change front to back, ect. There is no perfect rule, but I feel it needs to be addressed and a best solution needs to happen.

 

I do not think it is fair for a team to spend $2000+3000 a weekend on tires versus someone spending $400 on tires. I know money rules in motorsports, but I think Champcar can try to even the playing field some. 

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180 TW or higher.
No airguns over the wall, or in the paddock (Harris Hill) to change tires. Electric impacts, or hand tools.

--- One tire change per stop. Just like a fuel stop. that tires comes off, and boom. 5-minutes. No exceptions. Everyone plays by the same rule.

or

--- Change a tire, 5-minute added to the stop.

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30 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Every single tire rule has downfalls and exceptions. 

 

- For FWD cars, if you limit it to 1 tire change per stop, what happens if I want to swap front to back? How can the pit marshals see this?  

- Same issue with only hand tools. I want to rotate my tires front to back (which is well within the spirit of champcar) but now I have to do it with hand tools? WTF? Thats stupid.

- Only allowing tire changes in the Paddock will be a disaster. So many things wrong with that IMO.

- Penalty lap for using the hot tires. What happens if someone starts on the RS4s and then switches out to RE71s or rivals? Who keeps track of this?

 

The only solution that will really work is to ban certain "Hot" tires, or to have a list of approved tires. If there is a years warning, that will allow teams to plan ahead.  If you run a non-approved tire, you get pushed to EC. Its so simple.


Why would you swap front to back? I don't think that's a relevant argument.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Why would you swap front to back? I don't think that's a relevant argument.

????  A lot of FWD teams swap front to back. 

Not sure if we've ever done it during a race... 

 

edit:

....but I can understand (as @petawawaracesaid) a difference between swapping tires and installing new ones. the penalty shouldn't be the same.

Edited by mcoppola
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2 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Why would you swap front to back? I don't think that's a relevant argument.

I've raced FWD cars than burn through fronts at twice the rate of rears.  I've driver RWD cars that do the opposite.  See it all the time.

Edited by Jer
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Just now, mcoppola said:

????  A lot of FWD teams swap front to back. 

Not sure if we've ever done it during a race... 

 

 

I have seen many teams do that, E30 teams mainly

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4 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

That really means everyone will need to be on RS4 and we become a spec tire series, which most are saying heck no to.

I'm on 615K regardless of any tire rule change unless some deep pocket renter buys a couple sets of Rival S's for $3000 that might make it through the weekend.

 

Riley changed left sides during the race so that tells me 3 sets would be in order to cover both days. (Car is heavier than the Vette on narrower tires) Now we're at $4500 in tires versus $1100 for one set of 615k's.

 

I have no interest in spending over three times the entry fee for tires. My car choice demanding $1100 worth is bad enough it has made me weigh other options.

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5 minutes ago, Jer said:

I've raced FWD cars than burn through fronts at twice the rate of rears.  I've driver RWD cars that do the opposite.  See it all the time.


Yeah but why? I guess the only scenario would be if you don't have any spare tires or you do and you're trying not to use them? I'd just swap the fronts/rears to new when they're worn out. Swapping front to rear during a pit stop is already a huge waste of time.

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Just now, Slugworks Paul said:


Yeah but why? I guess the only scenario would be if you don't have any spare tires or you do and you're trying not to use them? I'd just swap the fronts/rears to new when they're worn out. Swapping front to rear during a pit stop is already a huge waste of time.

wear.  In my Miata the rears wore out at a much slower rate than the fronts.  Moving front to back increased our tire life and saved me a lot of money.    

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Just now, Jer said:

wear.  In my Miata the rears wore out at a much slower rate than the fronts.  Moving front to back increased our tire life and saved me a lot of money.    


I think you're missing my point.. 

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Well, another way to beat this horse is to not allow any tire changes during the race except for a cut tire. Or maybe just allow one tire change for the race. Not sure how this would work in practice as some teams might be running around on worn tires but the incentive would be to start on new tires that can last the entire race. Again, very long races might require an additional rule where one set of tires could be changed per race.

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18 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Yeah but why? I guess the only scenario would be if you don't have any spare tires or you do and you're trying not to use them? I'd just swap the fronts/rears to new when they're worn out. Swapping front to rear during a pit stop is already a huge waste of time.

 

I have been a part of one of these changes....Only had 2 sets of wheels and each used different lug nuts....

 

Was years ago, when we ran cheap races and didn't spend as much on the cars, and we didn't want to bring spares to pit lane....

Edited by Black Magic
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I'm so confused... I think you get my point but if you don't, I guess I'll go talk to myself in the corner.

In general, I am very against people rushing around the paddock to change tires. I think enforcing 1 tire per stop is easy for pit lane personnel but I think some counter arguments are valid. I don't think a list of approved tire make/models is a terrible idea.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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23 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

I don't think a list of approved tire make/models is a terrible idea.

615k/RS4/VR1 and anything 220tw and up would be a good starting point. There may be another model out there I'm not familiar with that meets the same treadwear characteristics and the 220 and up allows more choice without allowing autocross tires. The 220's I have in mind are from Goodyear and Michelin as they seem a bit more truthful in their treadwear ratings and those tires are for road course work. Not autocross.

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I think Paul is saying “if a front is close to worn out, don’t put it on the rear, just replace it with a new tire!”

 

Echoing others: mandating tire changes in the paddock is just stupid. You can’t enforce a safe speed limit in the paddock... I have drivers that would go like a bat out of hell through paddock if we were in contention. Also this would create an issue with prime paddock spots near breaks in pit wall. 

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Not a fan of changing only one tire.

Not a fan of adding time to pit.

I'll go with one side of the car up at a time & no air guns. Battery powered impacts & torque wrenches only.

 

If a team is spending $3,000 or more on tires for one race and you take that away from them they will just spend that money on something else. And still be fast.

While a sticky tire will get you some lap time it's not just the only thing that makes these guys fast. It's the set up & the drivers.

I think the Corvette in question only changes left side tires once at the Sunday 8 hour Elkhart race. So are we just trying to over complicate things?for changing a tire?

We spent good money on a fuel cell & system so we could go two hours now you want to take that away from us? Because we will be penalized by a longer stop or have to come in again to change a tire?

Edited by hotrod
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3 minutes ago, hotrod said:

If a team is spending $3,000 or more on tires for one race and you take that away from them they will just spend that money on something else. And still be fast.

The only performance part that doesn't have a point value, only a cash dollars value, is tires.

 

If they can pick up 5 seconds per lap by spending $3000 on their car within the limits of the points my hat is off to them. And that is what the series should be about.

 

Of course that $3-4500 is for one race only on the tires.... The car mods are forever.

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