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I have read the roll cage description in the BCCR more than a few times looking to the answer to these questions, but am coming up empty. 
 

in an attempt to make the cage fit the body as tight as possible in our S-10 and maximize room, is the main hoop allowed to have a bend leaning it forward to fit tight against back wall, and follow window line to meet the halo at the top?

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I'm not 100% sure that this is forbidden in any rulesets, but having bends in the roll hoop such that it is not a single plane significantly reduces the cage's structural integrity - unless the bend is properly supported I suppose.

 

Personally, I'd discourage it, and just cram the bottom feet into the cab corners and push the top as far backward against the window as you can.

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4 hours ago, collinskl1 said:

I'm not 100% sure that this is forbidden in any rulesets, but having bends in the roll hoop such that it is not a single plane significantly reduces the cage's structural integrity - unless the bend is properly supported I suppose.

 

Personally, I'd discourage it, and just cram the bottom feet into the cab corners and push the top as far backward against the window as you can.

I never thought about leaving it single plane and mounting it on a forward angle. That might help as well. 
 

I have a tech inquiry started. So I will get correct direction soon 

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Posted (edited)

I tried to find a good side view pic of an S-10. 

Best one I could find that shows the cab profile, this one came with a dog in it, lol.

From what's described, it looks like the bottom portion of the main hoop could be more rearward of where the top could be, due to the slight slope of the upper portion of cab.

 

CHEVROLET S-10 - 75px Image #4

 

edit: @mgoblue06 I think that would be a better solution than bending the main hoop bar in a fore/aft direction. You could always bow the shoulder hoop back to get the same effective clearance (most space) for the driver.

Did you mention you are near Ann Arbor (mgoblue?).

I've been interested in your build. If you're somewhat local, I'd enjoy a visit eventually, and would be happy to help out with any questions you might have. 

Edited by mcoppola
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17 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

I tried to find a good side view pic of an S-10. 

Best one I could find that shows the cab profile, this one came with a dog in it, lol.

From what's described, it looks like the bottom portion of the main hoop could be more rearward of where the top could be, due to the slight slope of the upper portion of cab.

 

CHEVROLET S-10 - 75px Image #4

 

edit: @mgoblue06 I think that would be a better solution than bending the main hoop bar in a fore/aft direction. You could always bow the shoulder hoop back to get the same effective clearance (most space) for the driver.

Did you mention you are near Ann Arbor (mgoblue?).

I've been interested in your build. If you're somewhat local, I'd enjoy a visit eventually, and would be happy to help out with any questions you might have. 


What you describe about the bottom portion being more rearward because of cab slope is correct. @Chris Huggins this is what I was trying to explain. 
 

Located just west of Sandusky. Would love for you to stop down! Beer and lunch is on me!

 

If the main hoop stays upright, I’m thinking of something like this for the shoulder bar. That would allow maximum rear clearance and keep the main hoop on plane. The diagonal bars would still connect the shoulder bar to the main hoop, just on a minor angle. 

88101786-3006-4B9D-8C44-D39C9BB15CEC.jpeg

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That looks like a real nice tight fit on both the main and shoulder bar. 

Consider running the main hoop diagonal bar as one piece, straight from driver side top corner to passenger side bottom corner. Then just use a small section of straight tube to connect your shoulder bar to the diagonal. 

The diagonal needs to absorb way more force in a rollover/crush scenario than a shoulder bar will ever see from belt loads. So I would keep the diagonal straight for that reason. Some Miatas (see below) and others have a bowed shoulder bar only on the driver side, and a straight tube completing the level transverse connection to the pass side main hoop, but what you have for the shoulder bar will work fine with the short connecting tube I described.

 

Picture of Roll Cage Kit

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26 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

That looks like a real nice tight fit on both the main and shoulder bar. 

Consider running the main hoop diagonal bar as one piece, straight from driver side top corner to passenger side bottom corner. Then just use a small section of straight tube to connect your shoulder bar to the diagonal. 

The diagonal needs to absorb way more force in a rollover/crush scenario than a shoulder bar will ever see from belt loads. So I would keep the diagonal straight for that reason. Some Miatas (see below) and others have a bowed shoulder bar only on the driver side, and a straight tube completing the level transverse connection to the pass side main hoop, but what you have for the shoulder bar will work fine with the short connecting tube I described.

 

Picture of Roll Cage Kit

I like this idea a lot. Gives space for seat, diagonal terminates in the general area of drivers head. 
 

with as much offset as we may have, the diagonal bar and shoulder bar could be two separate pieces that do not intersect. Would that be stronger or weaker? 

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From an engineering standpoint I would discourage bending the main hoop as you describe in the original post then.   I would put the feet in the back corners and lean the whole thing forward slightly so it fits in the top corners.

 

The main hoop should be in a single plane for maximum strength.   Note: This is not a requirement in the rules, but based on my engineering background and is a suggestion

 

 

What you have pictured in the blue truck looks like very nice work, and accomplishes generally the same thing you are trying to do right (move the driver seat as far back as possible)

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

I like this idea a lot. Gives space for seat, diagonal terminates in the general area of drivers head. 
 

with as much offset as we may have, the diagonal bar and shoulder bar could be two separate pieces that do not intersect. Would that be stronger or weaker? 

That’s exactly what I described. Leave your shoulder bar as it is, one piece full width. Add the one piece diagonal bar in the same plane as the main hoop, and in the space between the two you just add in a short bar in the fore/aft direction to connect them. 

(Where the arrow is at. Sorry for the crude artwork lol) 

In this scenario, The main hoop and diagonal will be in the same flat plane (strongest) and the shoulder bar will be just as strong with the rearward bow and tied at the diagonal, as it would be if it too were planar with the main hoop. 
edit: from a side crash perspective, a straight shoulder bar beats a bowed one, but the amount of bow in the one shown is very minor and will not affect crosscar stiffness as much as if it had a large bend in it.
 

image.jpeg.d78174f0ad3c25163a7f5aa35c056391.jpeg

 

Edited by mcoppola
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S10's have a pretty narrow frame so outriggers generally have to be made to attach the cage to. You probably already know this just wanted to point that out just in case. Cars/trucks with frames get the cage mounted to the frame, not the body shell, otherwise they can separate in a bad crash.

 

The pic with the hoop ending in the corner of the cab made me think of this.

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5 hours ago, Bandit said:

S10's have a pretty narrow frame so outriggers generally have to be made to attach the cage to. You probably already know this just wanted to point that out just in case. Cars/trucks with frames get the cage mounted to the frame, not the body shell, otherwise they can separate in a bad crash.

 

The pic with the hoop ending in the corner of the cab made me think of this.

Oh yeah. I knew it would need out riggers. RCC suggested 2x4x1/8th with gussets, but I could have swore I saw somewhere that a minimum thickness was 1/4 wall. 

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I'd go with RCC's recommendation. 1/4 is really thick. @mcoppola does a fair bit of cage work so he may point you the right way.

 

If you have the Motor Trend channel on Amazon "Faster with Finnegan" did a quick little build of a road course S10 over a couple episodes that may give you some ideas and things to watch out for. One suggestion I'd have that they didn't do would be to put Howe 1" extended ball joints in the lower control arms. Will vastly improve the camber curve while lowering the truck an inch. Howe's in the uppers at standard height wouldn't be a bad idea either as they eliminate sticktion and one can make small changes to the dynamic camber by changing out the studs to various heights/lengths if necessary.

 

Pricey ball joints but they are rebuildable and can change the geometry by just swapping stud lengths.

 

Looking forward to seeing this truck. S10's are fun.

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9 minutes ago, Bandit said:

I'd go with RCC's recommendation. 1/4 is really thick. @mcoppola does a fair bit of cage work so he may point you the right way.

 

If you have the Motor Trend channel on Amazon "Faster with Finnegan" did a quick little build of a road course S10 over a couple episodes that may give you some ideas and things to watch out for. One suggestion I'd have that they didn't do would be to put Howe 1" extended ball joints in the lower control arms. Will vastly improve the camber curve while lowering the truck an inch. Howe's in the uppers at standard height wouldn't be a bad idea either as they eliminate sticktion and one can make small changes to the dynamic camber by changing out the studs to various heights/lengths if necessary.

 

Pricey ball joints but they are rebuildable and can change the geometry by just swapping stud lengths.

 

Looking forward to seeing this truck. S10's are fun.

racers have been doing the Chrysler C-body ball joint trick for years.... once you open the box you'll see why. 

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22 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

racers have been doing the Chrysler C-body ball joint trick for years.... once you open the box you'll see why. 

Nice thing with the Howes is there are no changes required to the control arms.

 

And one can get about any length one wants.

spacer.png

Edited by Bandit
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19 hours ago, Bandit said:

I'd go with RCC's recommendation. 1/4 is really thick. @mcoppola does a fair bit of cage work so he may point you the right way.

 

If you have the Motor Trend channel on Amazon "Faster with Finnegan" did a quick little build of a road course S10 over a couple episodes that may give you some ideas and things to watch out for. One suggestion I'd have that they didn't do would be to put Howe 1" extended ball joints in the lower control arms. Will vastly improve the camber curve while lowering the truck an inch. Howe's in the uppers at standard height wouldn't be a bad idea either as they eliminate sticktion and one can make small changes to the dynamic camber by changing out the studs to various heights/lengths if necessary.

 

Pricey ball joints but they are rebuildable and can change the geometry by just swapping stud lengths.

 

Looking forward to seeing this truck. S10's are fun.

We have tall ball joints already in the lowers and uppers from suggestions from the s10 forum. Might change up to coil overs and non stock lower a arms if we have the points when the build is done. 
 

I’ll have to check those episodes out! Thanks!

 

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21 hours ago, Bandit said:

Nice thing with the Howes is there are no changes required to the control arms.

 

And one can get about any length one wants.

spacer.png

we got  our new ones from speedway... 

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4 hours ago, mgoblue06 said:

We have tall ball joints already in the lowers and uppers from suggestions from the s10 forum. Might change up to coil overs and non stock lower a arms if we have the points when the build is done. 
 

I’ll have to check those episodes out! Thanks!

 

Other than coilovers you are probably beyond most of what they did to the truck, and it has a 5.3 which might not work here, but they are pretty good episodes. Randy Pobst is in both and he always makes shows fun. They attempt to make the S15, forgot it's a GMC, lap with a GT350.

 

Fortunately Faster with Finnegan isn't a Roadkill clone, but rather they try to improve things without seemingly attempting to fail. And no Mr. Birkenstocks so it's pretty good. (Finnegan's Garage on Youtube is good as well.) The S15 episodes are the very first in season one and ep 6 of season 2.

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5 hours ago, Bandit said:

Other than coilovers you are probably beyond most of what they did to the truck, and it has a 5.3 which might not work here, but they are pretty good episodes. Randy Pobst is in both and he always makes shows fun. They attempt to make the S15, forgot it's a GMC, lap with a GT350.

 

Fortunately Faster with Finnegan isn't a Roadkill clone, but rather they try to improve things without seemingly attempting to fail. And no Mr. Birkenstocks so it's pretty good. (Finnegan's Garage on Youtube is good as well.) The S15 episodes are the very first in season one and ep 6 of season 2.

I wish dropping a 5.3 in it would work here. Lol 

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