Discussion: The National Championship Invites / A JAS-Rule?

[riche30]

Let me start by stating this is coming from a 100% biased position, and I'm very much aware of my bias.  That being said, sometimes a bias helps expose a possible short-coming in our series.

Our national championship invites are based on overall points alone.  For the 2020 championship race a team could have potentially finished in 6th place overall over two race weekends, never been invited to impound, and still receive an invite.

John Allen Special in 2021 has two class victories against classes carrying 13 and 14 cars respectively (don't quote me on that, I'm going from memory).  However, the overall placements have them at a 3rd and 13th overall (once again, memory) giving JAS a total of 16pts for the year.  Now, the boys fully plan to go out a few more times to try to whip up on everyone else and making this whole idea a non-issue BUT... shouldn't a team that has class victories be considered for invitation to the big dance?  Would a rule, with some kind of qualifier, inviting class winners that don't make the championship race through overall placement be supported by the masses?

Possible petition could look like the below:

 

1.5.1.1. In order to qualify for the National Championship, a ChampCar team must:

a. Finish in the top 75 in points for the previous season.

b. Teams must compete in at least two (2) event weekends.

c. Alternatively any team registering a class win in a class with 10 or more participants in the qualifying season and meeting the two (2) weekend event criteria also qualifies for invitation.

[enginerd]

No, because cars aren’t handicapped by their classes. The classes don’t deterministically affect overall finishing position*. Overall finishing position is the prize. 

*except for examples like A-class at Daytona or D-class at AMP. In those cases I’m sure there is a statistical difference. But on the whole, the difference is quite small and probably washes. And if you’re really concerned about qualifying and have an A-class car, maybe enter events other than Daytona. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by enginerd

[JDChristianson]

No.  Not until there are classes that make more sense and then you’d maybe have a national championship for each class.    A decent number of folks are real sure the single class thing is sacred so don’t hold your breath

 

[wvumtnbkr]

Yea, im in the group that thinks an overall is the only goal.  The only time a class win even crosses my mind is if we are not in the hunt.  Even then, its just so i get a trophy to put on my shelf.  I dont feel "good" about winning the class trophy, because it means we most likely didn't execute well enough to win.

 

To be blunt, it feels like a "participation championship" if classes counted.

[Timothy G. Elliott]

Just being there at the end is a win for me! I would love to see class trophies too, why have classes at all otherwise?

 

[wvumtnbkr]

4 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Just being there at the end is a win for me! I would love to see class trophies too, why have classes at all otherwise?

 

Classes were developed for Sprint racing where the c and d class cars were basically unbeatable in a 30 minute race.

 

So, I agree.  Why have classes at all?

[hotchkis23]

Also not really for this.  There have been plenty of times where class winners finished outside the top 15 at events.  In the past when the race used finishes as part of the winning criteria I may have supported it, however now that the race is winner take all, I feel it should be relegated to those that are able to show up as the top 75 cars from the season.  Just having the 5 race requirement already makes it "easier" imho for a team like yours or ours to make the big show.  We know we will probably not contend for an overall win at a lot of events, but a top 5 should be and is always our goal.  Having 5 attempts required makes that seem a lot more attainable and limits participation to those that truly want to be there at the end of the season.

[enginerd]

23 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

why have classes at all otherwise?

There are a dozen threads about this... Come find us at Road America and I’d love to tell you all about it.

[riche30]

I'm just of the mindset that the JAS guys have two trophies sitting on the mantle this year that say "1st Place" and they may not even get an invite while teams that have no hardware do.

We're a series with classes.  That ship has sailed, I don't think you're ever going to see CCES go back to a single class series.  As such we should take our classes seriously.  If that means changing how classes are structured, so be it.  But until then, I still think we should treat our "race winners" like "race winners".  

[shutupracing]

43 minutes ago, riche30 said:

But until then, I still think we should treat our "race winners" like "race winners".  

Which is how it is now.

 

There is only one race winner per race. 

 

 

[wvumtnbkr]

Just no.

 

Class wins and trophies are stepping stones to be overall competitive.

 

I always laugh when I see Facebook postings where a team has their 1st place trophy and says "we won sebring!"....   no ya didn't.  Ya finished 18th overall.  Lolz.

[67Mustang]

15 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Just no.

 

Class wins and trophies are stepping stones to be overall competitive.

 

I always laugh when I see Facebook postings where a team has their 1st place trophy and says "we won sebring!"....   no ya didn't.  Ya finished 18th overall.  Lolz.

That is a fair point.  Hurley Haywood, Brian Redman and others like them only talk about the outright wins even though they have many class wins.

[wvumtnbkr]

11 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

That is a fair point.  Hurley Haywood, Brian Redman and others like them only talk about the outright wins even though they have many class wins.

Well, those classes also meant something.  Multiclass racing is more like 2 or 3 races happening at the same time.  

 

A GTLM car does not follow the same rulebook as a a P1 car.  Those are true classes.  In champcar we all have the same rulebook. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by wvumtnbkr

[dinanm3atl]

27 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Just no.

 

Class wins and trophies are stepping stones to be overall competitive.

 

I always laugh when I see Facebook postings where a team has their 1st place trophy and says "we won sebring!"....   no ya didn't.  Ya finished 18th overall.  Lolz.

 

10 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

That is a fair point.  Hurley Haywood, Brian Redman and others like them only talk about the outright wins even though they have many class wins.

 

Did you forget a “/sarcastic” in your post? Or are you joking?

 

Go tell all the GT drivers with a Rolex from Daytona. Or trophies from Sebring 12hr. Etc. That they didn’t win. Actually come to an IMSA round and I’ll introduce you to Bill Auberlen and you can tell him his 200+ wins mostly were not wins because they weren’t overall wins. 

 

We won Daytona. And Road Atlanta. When all 500pt cars are equal we can discuss a single class series. Which won’t ever happen unless we have a field of 5-6 different cars. 

[Racer28173]

Here’s the beautiful thing.  We allow anyone to run the championship race.  Half of the cars in this year's race are not “contenders”.  
if you win the race (or another non-EC “non contender” wins), then we have something to discuss.  But until that happens, the current system seems to be inviting the most competitive teams.  

[wvumtnbkr]

3 minutes ago, dinanm3atl said:

 

 

Did you forget a “/sarcastic” in your post? Or are you joking?

 

Go tell all the GT drivers with a Rolex from Daytona. Or trophies from Sebring 12hr. Etc. That they didn’t win. Actually come to an IMSA round and I’ll introduce you to Bill Auberlen and you can tell him his 200+ wins mostly were not wins because they weren’t overall wins. 

 

We won Daytona. And Road Atlanta. When all 500pt cars are equal we can discuss a single class series. Which won’t ever happen unless we have a field of 5-6 different cars. 

Not joking.  IF champcar had classes that were actually different (they arent...  GTLM versus DP versus P2, versus GTD are all different classes....  they are entirely different builds, rulebook, etc...) then, if agree. 

 

As it stands, any class can win overall in any race in champcar (within reason.  Miata no win daytona....).  Same rulebook for all champcar too.

 

As I stated before, class trophies are weird and are certainly not the same level as an overall win in champcar.

 

Class wins in champcar are NOT equal to class wins in any other series....

 

The entire point is that all 500 pt cars are not equal!  May the best team win!

 

The rules allow almost every car to be competitive (if it has enough fuel).

 

I'm gonna stop now.

Edited April 15, 2021 by wvumtnbkr

[67Mustang]

2 minutes ago, dinanm3atl said:

 

 

Did you forget a “/sarcastic” in your post? Or are you joking?

 

Go tell all the GT drivers with a Rolex from Daytona. Or trophies from Sebring 12hr. Etc. That they didn’t win. Actually come to an IMSA round and I’ll introduce you to Bill Auberlen and you can tell him his 200+ wins mostly were not wins because they weren’t overall wins. 

 

We won Daytona. And Road Atlanta. When all 500pt cars are equal we can discuss a single class series. Which won’t ever happen unless we have a field of 5-6 different cars. 

Been at IMSA races since the 80's and followed Auberlen when he was running an RSR with his dad.  I have brought IMSA up as being classes here before and been poo pooed for the comments...  It is what it is.  When the GTO NIssans won overall, it meant more than a class win.  When Gregg Haywood won overall in 73, it meant more than a class win.  Guess it all depends how you look at it.

[67Mustang]

7 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Well, those classes also meant something.  Multiclass racing is more like 2 or 3 races happening at the same time.  

 

A GTLM car does not follow the same rulebook as a a P1 car.  Those are true classes.  In champcar we all have the same rulebook. 

To be fair, I don't follow the current IMSA structure too deeply,.  My love for it was back in the day, 70's-90's.  Alas the closest I got beyond attending many 24's and 12's was my dad hooking up with MSB racing and playing with a Mazda Argo one year in the late 80's maybe  Still have his crew shirt lol.  When people talk classes, I think straight back to the old IMSA.

[wvumtnbkr]

Just now, 67Mustang said:

To be fair, I don't follow the current IMSA structure too deeply,.  My love for it was back in the day, 70's-90's.  Alas the closest I got beyond attending many 24's and 12's was my dad hooking up with MSB racing and playing with a Mazda Argo one year in the late 80's maybe  Still have his crew shirt lol.  When people talk classes, I think straight back to the old IMSA.

Exactly.

 

The classes were still prototype cars as 1 class, factory race cars another class, production cars another class.

 

They all had entirely different rule books.

 

It was like 3 races at the same time that just happen to be on track at the same time.

 

Champcar is NOT like that.

 

 

In other words, I'm not in favor of giving any weight to class winners for the championship.

 

Can you tell I'm passionate about this?  Lolz.

[mindspin311]

8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

As it stands, any class can win overall in any race in champcar (within reason.  Miata no win daytona....).  Same rulebook for all champcar too.

 

The entire point is that all 500 pt cars are not equal!  May the best team win!

 

The rules allow almost every car to be competitive (if it has enough fuel).

All of these statements are conflicting. This make no sense.

[riche30]

42 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

Which is how it is now.

 

There is only one race winner per race. 

 

 

 

There are 4 winners in every race we hold.

1.4.3.1. A “First Place in Class” trophy will be awarded to each Class winner.

[wvumtnbkr]

3 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

All of these statements are conflicting. This make no sense.

How so?

 

Let me give you an example....

 

Team A builds a 500 pt mustang.  They are not the best builders and therefore don't win anything.

 

Team B builds a 500 pt mustang and wins all the time.

 

Same team A gives up on the mustang and builds a tunaslapper.  They still suck.

 

Same team B decides to build a tunaslapper.  They are winning with it as well.

 

In other words, a majority of cars have enough points to be built into competitive cars.

 

It is the teams and the build of that car that makes 1 car better than the others.

 

So, a mustang, miata, BMW, Toyota, c hevy, etc...  has a legit chance to win every race.

 

That being said, not every mustang, or miata, or Chevy are built equally.

 

There are enough points and free stuff to make almost anything competitive.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by wvumtnbkr

[mindspin311]

1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

How so?

As it stands, any class can win overall in any race in champcar (within reason.  Miata no win daytona....).  Same rulebook for all champcar too.

-True statement

 

The entire point is that all 500 pt cars are not equal!  May the best team win!

-Why are 500pt cars not equal?

 

The rules allow almost every car to be competitive (if it has enough fuel).

-Not every car has enough fuel, VPI attempts to fix this, but it's never happened

 

So you have a segment of cars that arent competitive because they are fuel limited and the VPI doesnt provide them enough to compensate. And the purpose of VPI is to create equal cars, which is just not the case.

[dinanm3atl]

“Within reason” and you made a statement about a car. What if the “best team” has a Miata and Championship is at Daytona? “Oh sorry you likely can’t win the title this year. Better luck with track choice next year!”

 

We have classes and while there is one large rule book the reality each class does have its own rule book. It’s centered around engine size and forced induction. If CCES put out 4 versions of the rule book then we can have “class natty titles”?

Edited April 15, 2021 by dinanm3atl

[wvumtnbkr]

1 minute ago, mindspin311 said:

As it stands, any class can win overall in any race in champcar (within reason.  Miata no win daytona....).  Same rulebook for all champcar too.

-True statement

 

The entire point is that all 500 pt cars are not equal!  May the best team win!

-Why are 500pt cars not equal?

 

The rules allow almost every car to be competitive (if it has enough fuel).

-Not every car has enough fuel, VPI attempts to fix this, but it's never happened

 

So you have a segment of cars that arent competitive because they are fuel limited and the VPI doesnt provide them enough to compensate. And the purpose of VPI is to create equal cars, which is just not the case.

Ah, gotcha.  I was editing my post when you posted.

 

I did leave the fuel disclaimer in there for that exact reason.

 

To answer your question, 500 pt cars aren't equal because the same team didn't build them.  Look at how there are crazy different levels of speed just in miata.