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Discussion: The National Championship Invites / A JAS-Rule?


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@riche30 @dinanm3atl

In IMSA GTD has no chance vs. GTLM which is far slower than LMP1. They have different podiums because they are vastly different in performance (literally different rulebooks).

 

So, what is the performance hierarchy in the ChampCar classes? Which class is the ‘LMP1’ that has a big advantage and which class / classes are the GTDs of ChampCar where you’re in it for class alone because there’s no way to win overall?

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3 minutes ago, dinanm3atl said:

“Within reason” and you made a statement about a car. What if the “best team” has a Miata and Championship is at Daytona? “Oh sorry you likely can’t win the title this year. Better luck with track choice next year!”

 

we have classes and while there is one large rule book the reality each class does have its own rule book. It’s centered around engine size and forced induction. If CCES out out 4 versions of the rule book then we can have “class natty titles”?

 

Not only does the track at which the Championship is held, but the qualifying events a team might attend matters.  An A class car could attend events at particular races tracks that favor them (and might also have lower attendance if they aren't premier tracks) and qualify for the Championship that is held at an A-favoring track.  Are they truly the best Champcar team?  They were in this scenario.

 

Unfortunately, with classes not carrying any real weight, there is no way to get around this.

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Crazy to me that we have a series where people want classes but don't want to recognize those classes.

OK JAS boys... I guess you need to just gotta do it the hard way.

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Ah, gotcha.  I was editing my post when you posted.

 

I did leave the fuel disclaimer in there for that exact reason.

 

To answer your question, 500 pt cars aren't equal because the same team didn't build them.  Look at how there are crazy different levels of speed just in miata.


I don’t believe he was stating it one make one model. Of course they will be different. It’s unlikely all are the same. But again if you are saying only overall matters than should all Miatas do the ecotec swap? 
 

Or our car versus crowd control. At Daytona in drive our pro driver Robby Foley could not keep up in the dry. Obviously. It’s just raw power. When it started raining last year? Robby ran the car down. Passed it easily. The cars obviously are not equal but overall head to head is now weather dependent on being able to race each other. 
 

We hope to change that as time goes on we are still tweaking but that comes down to pure raw power. So then it comes down to “we didn’t choose your car”. Which leads to choose 5 or so “best” cars if you want to win which is lame. 

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

@riche30 @dinanm3atl

In IMSA GTD has no chance vs. GTLM which is far slower than LMP1. They have different podiums because they are vastly different in performance (literally different rulebooks).

 

So, what is the performance hierarchy in the ChampCar classes? Which class is the ‘LMP1’ that has a big advantage and which class / classes are the GTDs of ChampCar where you’re in it for class alone because there’s no way to win overall?


Just because the classing system is currently bonkers doesn't mean you don't celebrate those that win in said system.

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Im pretty sure that 500(ish) point C4 corvette and Daytona was and always will be faster than a 500pt... anything.

 

 

I really dont want this to be a pissing match regarding 500pt cars and what is equal.

 

The fact is this, CCES recognizes a class winner at every race. Why not recognize a class champion?

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10 minutes ago, dinanm3atl said:

What if the “best team” has a Miata and Championship is at Daytona? “Oh sorry you likely can’t win the title this year. Better luck with track choice next year!”

That’s exactly what would happen. And I don’t see anything wrong with that. Bring your Miata to the next championship. Or be happy with 5th. This is an amateur series. Cross your fingers that the next championship is held at Harris Hill. 

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Just now, mindspin311 said:

The fact is this, CCES recognizes a class winner at every race. Why not recognize a class champion?

 

I'm not even asking for a class champion.  I'm asking that any race winner (by class) at least get invited to participate in the championship race FOR the championship.  

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3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

That’s exactly what would happen. And I don’t see anything wrong with that. Bring your Miata to the next championship. Or be happy with 5th. This is an amateur series. Cross your fingers that the next championship is held at Harris Hill. 

Does that sort of make it "the winner of the last race which was based on a few qualifications" instead of "Champcar season champion"?

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Just now, Originalsterm said:

Does that sort of make it "the winner of the last race which was based on a few qualifications" instead of "Champcar season champion"?

Yep.

 

You want to find the definitive best team in ChampCar? Better have a bunch of teams doing 10+ events at all different tracks and adding up season points. Like Formula 1 or Indy.

 

But this is an amateur series and we don’t want an unreachable race requirement since many amateurs can only do 3 events per year. So we have a pretty low bar qualifying and a single winner take all race to crown a champion. And if that champion isn’t actually the best team in the series but just a good team that had a really great weekend, that’s awesome for them! I don’t think the #1 panel and bragging rights will be life changing but it would be hella cool.

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10 minutes ago, enginerd said:

That’s exactly what would happen. And I don’t see anything wrong with that. Bring your Miata to the next championship. Or be happy with 5th. This is an amateur series. Cross your fingers that the next championship is held at Harris Hill. 



Just to throw this out there... you're qualified for the 2020 championship based off your 3rd place at Nelson and your win at Gingerman.  Congrats, great runs, and I don't want to take away from that.  But, the combined cars you finished in front of for those two events that places you in the field is 94 cars.

JAS, in 2021, with two class wins don't forget, does't have the same overall finishes you showed.  Yet, in those two races finished ahead of a combined 150 cars.

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3 minutes ago, riche30 said:

Just to throw this out there... you're qualified for the 2020 championship based off your 3rd place at Nelson and your win at Gingerman.  Congrats, great runs, and I don't want to take away from that.  But, the combined cars you finished in front of for those two events that places you in the field is 94 cars.

JAS, in 2021, with two class wins don't forget, does't have the same overall finishes you showed.  Yet, in those two races finished ahead of a combined 150 cars.

Come race the Midwest, we have smaller car counts. 
 

I was pretty vocal in 2018 about entering Brainerd because there were only about 25 cars signed up and it would be “easy points”. I have no shame there!

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Just now, enginerd said:

Come race the Midwest, we have smaller car counts. 
 

I was pretty vocal in 2018 about entering Brainerd because there were only about 25 cars signed up and it would be “easy points”. I have no shame there!


Nothing wrong with winning small car counts.  It SHOULD be rewarded.  But so should those folks that actually have trophies on the mantle, big or small, that say "winner".  Not sure why you're fighting so hard to keep people out of the event instead of rewarding folks and encouraging competition.  This is a "for fun" series, after all.  Afraid they might beat you?

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21 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Yep.

 

You want to find the definitive best team in ChampCar? Better have a bunch of teams doing 10+ events at all different tracks and adding up season points. Like Formula 1 or Indy.

 

But this is an amateur series and we don’t want an unreachable race requirement since many amateurs can only do 3 events per year. So we have a pretty low bar qualifying and a single winner take all race to crown a champion. And if that champion isn’t actually the best team in the series but just a good team that had a really great weekend, that’s awesome for them! I don’t think the #1 panel and bragging rights will be life changing but it would be hella cool.

Competing in a large number of events just doesn't make sense across the board in an amateur series, I agree.  But I don't know that the structure of the "Championship" truly highlights the best team that season. Not to take away from any past winners, they are great and worked for it.  But I think the class system is a way to encourage variety, increase numbers, and satisfy the teams that truly want to compete all the way to the end.  Saying, just don't go to the Championship this year, doesn't seem like long term vision.  Those cars may choose a venue where they can compete in every race and it is worth making the trips and commitments.

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37 minutes ago, enginerd said:

That’s exactly what would happen. And I don’t see anything wrong with that. Bring your Miata to the next championship. Or be happy with 5th. This is an amateur series. Cross your fingers that the next championship is held at Harris Hill. 


Tell Rob that, he ran a 2:16 at Daytona in his Miata. Without trouble he would have been tough to beat. 

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10 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

Competing in a large number of events just doesn't make sense across the board in an amateur series, I agree.  But I don't know that the structure of the "Championship" truly highlights the best team that season. Not to take away from any past winners, they are great and worked for it.  But I think the class system is a way to encourage variety, increase numbers, and satisfy the teams that truly want to compete all the way to the end.  Saying, just don't go to the Championship this year, doesn't seem like long term vision.  Those cars may choose a venue where they can compete in every race and it is worth making the trips and commitments.

You probably know this, but anybody can go race at the championship race.

 

You just can't win the championship ship unless you are qualified.

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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

You probably know this, but anybody can go race at the championship race.

 

You just can't win the championship ship unless you are qualified.


Correct.  And I'm asking for class winners (within reason) to be allowed to compete for THE championship.

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1 hour ago, riche30 said:

 

There are 4 winners in every race we hold.

1.4.3.1. A “First Place in Class” trophy will be awarded to each Class winner.

Well if that makes you feel better than that's good. But it sounds like it doesn't....

 

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. 

 

You think it makes sense, and is fair, for a car with a few class wins to go and compete for the national championship against a bunch of other cars that actually WIN the races. So what happens when you go to the national championship. And another (with an overall win and a second place) wins the race. But you win your class.

 

Who should be the championship winner? You? 

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6 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

Well if that makes you feel better than that's good. But it sounds like it doesn't....

 

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. 

 

You think it makes sense, and is fair, for a car with a few class wins to go and compete for the national championship against a bunch of other cars that actually WIN the races. So what happens when you go to the national championship. And another (with an overall win and a second place) wins the race. But you win your class.

 

Who should be the championship winner? You? 

In your class sure! Why not class champions too???!!! We already have a class structure so what's the problem with that?

Edited by Timothy G. Elliott
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6 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

Well if that makes you feel better than that's good. But it sounds like it doesn't....

 

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. 

 

You think it makes sense, and is fair, for a car with a few class wins to go and compete for the national championship against a bunch of other cars that actually WIN the races. So what happens when you go to the national championship. And another (with an overall win and a second place) wins the race. But you win your class.

 

Who should be the championship winner? You? 

If class wins qualify you for the championship, it should be a class championship, not overall.  At the moment classes don't mean very much, I really wish they did, but displacement based probably isn't the answer either.

 

 

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I'm probably in the minority but I think we should reward the top 3 overall finishers and the top 3 in each class at every event.

There are those out there that pay their fee & show up just to race and have fun (Usually more fun than the guys at the front!). If by chance they end up in the top 3 of their class they get a reward & go home extremely happy & can't wait to enter the next race.

If your running up front and something happens & you drop back you still stay in to try and win your class. Then you get rewarded.

If you get one of the top 3 you get that trophy and usually a Class win trophy unless the car in front of you is in the same class. Do you take the Top 3 trophy and leave the Class winner trophy behind. No you put it on your mantel. So what difference would it make if you finished tenth but first in Class?

Maybe have a minimum of 10-12 cars per class for this to happen. If three cars show up give out just one. 

I don't see how this is a negative as if has no affect on the top 3 overall winners.

We won the Midwest Class B Chumpionship in 2017 and only have the result posted in the Race Hero Archive to show for it. Which is fine because at the time just the top three were eligible. 

Why not class Champions?

And while we do race for race credits we also just run for the awesome trophies. 

Edited by hotrod
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The refusal by many to recognize classes is why there is so much angst about cars like SuperVette, Cobra's and others.

 

Guess what, a V8 sportscar is going to be faster than a 30 year old hairdresser car or yuppiemobile at many (most?) tracks short of castrating them with points while giving freebies to everyone else. Artificially creating "competition".

 

A couple Boxster's with 3 weeks prep time kicked ass at Daytona and likely would have won if not for a late stop to fix a loose suspension component. How are you going to slow them down with points? With classes you don't need to slow them down, but rather bump them a class.

 

btw-A C5R won overall at Daytona one year. Not being the top class doesn't mean you can't win overall.

 

eta-I see there was a request to add the C5 to the vpi list and the response was not likely to ever happen. Great track cars and relatively inexpensive, but with "no classes" it would destroy every car on the track so denied.

Edited by Bandit
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I'm not so sure that classes has ANYTHING to do with over the top builds that don't actually account for all the points stuff on the car. (Specifically talking about the c3 vette AND the f body built before that).

 

Bring on the (legal) v8s.  If they dominate all, sure change the vpi so there is no overdog....  That's actually entirely the point of single class racing.  

 

But, everybody should be paying attention as there is 3 or 4 cars that turn ridiculous lap times with 2.0 l engines or smaller...

 

In other words, not sure why the supervette or crowd control have to do with class racing.  Are D class cars winning all of the races?

 

 

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2 hours ago, riche30 said:

Crazy to me that we have a series where people want classes but don't want to recognize those classes.

Did we vote on having classes?

 

I am not willing to get rid of the classes and the trophies that go along with winning those classes. (Because, hey it can't hurt to keep some teams interested)

 

However, I sure did not want them when they were proposed (as sprint race classes...).

 

So, who actually wants classes?  And why do they want them would be my 2 questions. 

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