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Discussion: The National Championship Invites / A JAS-Rule?


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44 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

But that is the series roots, people shouldn't be able to enter a 2020 Lincoln and breeze by everything with the a/c and adaptive cruise on.

 

Yeah a exaggeration, my point is, racing aint easy, don't want to do the diligence, you are not or should not win (at any sport)

Well, the two "one month build" Boxsters ran well at Daytona, so they are already here.

 

I get what you are saying and not doing it the easy way myself. But there are a lot of people out there where the "easy button" works a lot better for them than a year long build.

7 minutes ago, enginerd said:

The series can't serve every car out there. If you want to race a 2010 BMW M3, or a CTS-V, or a (insert other fast cars here), go do it in WRL / AER. I don't see any problem telling these teams to take a hike. Very poor idea to obsolete / force great change on every existing car in the series in the hopes that newer ones join.

I wasn't suggesting cars of that level. On the flip side there are cars in this series that have trouble passing the RA safety trucks.

 

I get both sides of the discussion. 70% of the field doesn't want their junk turned into lawn art because some hot new thing shows up. On the flip side, the guy with the hot new thing doesn't want his hooptie penalized so goes elsewhere.

 

Trying to make a Corvette/Cobra/AltimaSER and Miata/E30 equal is a fools errand. That is why other series have classes.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Well, the two "one month build" Boxsters ran well at Daytona, so they are already here.

 

I get what you are saying and not doing it the easy way myself. But there are a lot of people out there where the "easy button" works a lot better for them than a year long build.

I wasn't suggesting cars of that level. On the flip side there are cars in this series that have trouble passing the RA safety trucks.

 

I get both sides of the discussion. 70% of the field doesn't want their junk turned into lawn art because some hot new thing shows up. On the flip side, the guy with the hot new thing doesn't want his hooptie penalized so goes elsewhere.

 

Trying to make a Corvette/Cobra/AltimaSER and Miata/E30 equal is a fools errand. That is why other series have classes.

 

 

With the exception of one professional team building a car to the absolute limit (and then some)...  those cars are all pretty equal at the end of a race.

 

Pinkies out, nemesis, parts badger, crowd control, the c4 guys with the blue car, all right there at the end.

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4 hours ago, riche30 said:

 

 

2 comments here.  Statistically, the unqualified car has already beaten more cars than Premium Dudes had to beat to qualify for their invite to this year's race.  My guess is if I calculated up the number of cars Pinkies Out beat at the VIR races that allowed you to qualify both your cars you'd see that JAS has also already outnumbered you as well.

 

Is this a joke?  Because I recall both Pinkies cars were 1&2 at a the VIR 24hr, I am sure that makes them fully qualified vs. how many cars they competed against or not.  Not to mention the fact that as you get closer and closer to the pointy end the competition for those positions really begins to tighten up and a team not only needs to have fast cars but smart drivers, great pitstops and strategy to stay ahead.  So maybe you finished ahead of more cars than Premium Dudes or Pinkies, but you also didn't beat the higher caliber competition that they did to finish where they did so your argument has very little or no merit in either case.

 

I get you want to have your car recognized for class victories, but Champcar is in fact a winner takes all series for 500pt cars. I think it would be wiser use of time to invest your efforts in getting your VPI lowered to a point where your chosen car can compete for the overall win and not be upset that your class win doesn't equal the same merit as the overall nor qualifies you for the Championship.

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10 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

They all had entirely different rule books.

 

It was like 3 races at the same time that just happen to be on track at the same time.

 

Champcar is NOT like that.

 

 

Can you tell I'm passionate about this?  Lolz.

GT cars had 1 rule book but 2 winners, GTU & GTO based on displacement sort of like ChampCar.

ChampCar is different, what other organization starts 120 cars expecting only 1 winner?

Most start 40-50 cars with 3-4 class winners.

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8 hours ago, riche30 said:

 

We can RACE at the championship race, but we aren't qualified to run for the big trophy.

Your whole argument is that you won’t win the big trophy anyway.  They give out B-class trophies at the championship race also.

 
 

there are only 15 “championship” cars this weekend.   This isn’t a problem in my mind.

 

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11 hours ago, riche30 said:

 

We can RACE at the championship race, but we aren't qualified to run for the big trophy.

So how many points do/would you have for the championship race? 19?

Sure you can race for the championship and the big trophy, but you would need to beat multiple teams with just 2, 3, 4 points.  Can you do that?  If you actually won the race you would have 20 points, so that means that all these low point teams would need to finish further down the order.  Reality sets in right about now...

It's kind of like a car showing up that's 700 points and wants to race in a non EC class- how realistic is that?

 

What's the big deal?  That you didn't get an invite to the dance?  
Sorry Cinderella...

 

 

Edited by chip
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2 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

Your whole argument is that you won’t win the big trophy anyway.

 


Just because I'm not sure WE have what it takes to win the big trophy doesn't mean other class winners might not have a chance.

 

 

21 minutes ago, chip said:

So how many points do/would you have for the championship race? 19?

Sure you can race for the championship and the big trophy, but you would need to beat multiple teams with just 2, 3, 4 points.  Can you do that?  If you actually won the race you would have 20 points, so that means that all these low point teams would need to finish further down the order.  Reality sets in right about now...

It's kind of like a car showing up that's 700 points and wants to race in a non EC class- how realistic is that?

 

What's the big deal?  That you didn't get an invite to the dance?  
Sorry Cinderella...

 

 


I'm merely stating we invite people to the big dance that may have never even been on a podium but are ignoring teams that actually brought home hardware.  We also encourage teams to "club baby seals" at small races and punish teams that race in larger fields. 

 

And while I use JAS as an example, no one on that team has ANY hopes or expectations to get invited to the 2021 dance next year based off of what has been done so far because its not in the rules.

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I’m on a team that has never won overall. Had a podium and a few 4th and 5th place finishes but never quite over the hump. That said, we celebrated like hell for our class win (singular) shotgunning beers and everything. 
 

I think it’s astounding that the top 5% of cars/drivers scoff at class wins. 95% of people that start racing in CC are NOT racing for the overall win. They start by chasing the class wins before ever thinking about the overall win. Pretty demoralizing if you join the series and finish mid-50s a couple times and realize you need a much bigger budget to compete at the pointy end. Maybe they’ll go play at the other series that have classes that make sense..

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18 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

So, who actually wants classes?  And why do they want them?

 

I do I do.

 

Personally, I do want classes. I don’t love the classes now but they are something people can build to and try to run well within.  Nor do I think class wins should get you to the Chumpionship (you’re on your own here Rich)

 

I also think that ½ the field is typically slower than 110% to 115% of the fastest classified cars lap.  These cars are not in it to win it.  Some times they and steal a class win but really this is a story of the haves (fast) and the have nots (slow).  Is the solution points based classes?  Or do we literally just give participation trophies to the top three slower teams (115% slower than the days fastest time maybe).  At Daytona this would be: 24th overall Impulse Motorsports, 26th overall Sharky 2 & 27th overall Dead Broke.

 

The back ½ of the field may be slow but they are why this series works.  More cars = more fun.  Low budget entry level series needs to celebrate low budget entry level teams.

 

I am fine with the one winner one goal talk but honestly at any race I attend there are normally only 10 cars in the race that might win the race.  The rest of us are racing for the fun of it.  I say share some love down to the slow teams paying 1/2 bills of the series.  (Yeah I like Luckydog)

 

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3 hours ago, chip said:

So how many points do/would you have for the championship race? 19?

Sure you can race for the championship and the big trophy, but you would need to beat multiple teams with just 2, 3, 4 points.  Can you do that?  If you actually won the race you would have 20 points, so that means that all these low point teams would need to finish further down the order.  Reality sets in right about now...

It's kind of like a car showing up that's 700 points and wants to race in a non EC class- how realistic is that?

 

What's the big deal?  That you didn't get an invite to the dance?  
Sorry Cinderella...

 

 

Rule changed to winner take all. Season points get you in but don’t affect outcome. 

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17 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Rule changed to winner take all. Season points get you in but don’t affect outcome. 

oops- forgot about that one- since were not taking the cars didn't care that much

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3 hours ago, cowboys647 said:

I’m on a team that has never won overall. Had a podium and a few 4th and 5th place finishes but never quite over the hump. That said, we celebrated like hell for our class win (singular) shotgunning beers and everything. 
 

I think it’s astounding that the top 5% of cars/drivers scoff at class wins. 95% of people that start racing in CC are NOT racing for the overall win. They start by chasing the class wins before ever thinking about the overall win. Pretty demoralizing if you join the series and finish mid-50s a couple times and realize you need a much bigger budget to compete at the pointy end. Maybe they’ll go play at the other series that have classes that make sense..

It isn't about budget.  At ALL.

 

I have maybe 12k in my car including buying it, swap it, safety gear, prep, etc...

 

We spend about 4.5 k for a weekend.

 

We have no paid crew or cooks or a fancy rig (open trailer).

 

I'm not saying we win a lot.  But, we do compete and usually end up in the top 5 or 10 unless we have an issue.  Even have a number of wins over the years.

 

In other words, it's not money spent (to a point).  If you show up with a junk car (not saying that you do!) Or an underprepped car, or, a non sorted suspension, it isn't gonna happen.

 

It's about prep and picking the right mods to be competitive.  Drivers are part of it, but there aren't too many drivers that are gonna lift a car above its abilities.  However, drivers CAN make the car slower.

 

To put it another way, there are still cars that are low budget winning races @Team Infiniti....

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9 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It isn't about budget.  At ALL..

I agree that it’s not all about budget, but it is some. Not every team can/want to put money into a car that they have bought. Maybe they want to cross race a spec Miata or in champ/lemons/LD. 
 

Our 1.6 spec Miata was getting demolished our first few races with Champ. We decided to put the money, points, and time to get it closer to the pointy end. I’ve now lost the resale value and the ability to race similar cars in other series. I did this because I love racing with Champ but I would have liked it even more if we had points-based classes so I didn’t have to rip out ALL the weight and engine swap our car just to be competitive.

 

I think people forget that a lot of teams are racing in many different places. The more our rules/classes allow people to race in between means closer racing and more money for the series. My $0.02 anyways. 

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