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2021 RA championship. Displacementgate 2.0 and compression talk


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37 minutes ago, chip said:

I would love to see that picture- don't know of any BMW that races that has a stock 6' filler neck.  The e30 is about 3' though, but I'm sure we can make it 6' 🤣...

Thanks Ray!

I can move our filler to a front fender, that’s fine with me!

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13 hours ago, 333 Kinkle said:

I just searched "Tuttle" in the forum. Let's just ban them. They have been a thorn in our club for some time.  Big budget and cheats a lot.  Not the first time. Ban Tuttle for a year or more. MCM, Riley and Tuttle just go away. Our racing series should be much better off without them. $10k of there entry fees will not be missed. Our club management needs to start doing something or we will all get frustrated and go elsewhere. Two races two cheaters. Hope this isn't a trend. I guess I am like the hundred of racers here. Just keep racing my own race and let the cheaters pass us. What a shame they will ruin a good thing for us all. The few will make it harder for us to pass inspection because now Champ Car thinks all of us are cheating. Think of the extra time we dont have already during tech inspection. Lot of extra work for management to look for the cheating now too. You cheat your gone. Zero tolerance. Hope someone from the club is listening. It is going to 12 pages of complaints. 

 

Anyone else you like to purge ?   How about banning teams that have a bigger motor home than yours or trailer.  Grow up dude, someone will always spend more than  you in this sport.  Other teams have already left because of  the attitude you have along with the other forum cry babies.  I'm sure two teams will still be entering races but pretty sure your other choice will not have their entry accepted. 

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3 hours ago, chip said:

Well since Champcar doesn't have a procedure for starting whether initially or after a pace car, I guess it doesn't matter much how we do it

 

Absolutely, there's no reason that start should have been waived off.  I still don't get why the Tuttle car in P2 didn't go, the pace car was clearly on the other side of the grass on pit road.  You'd think a team with pro experience would now how to properly start a race.  

 

3 hours ago, mhr650 said:

 

To Ray’s point there are “stock tank” cars in the series that would fail a pump out test big time. Even without ballooning tanks, modified vents, and long fillers can allow a car to hold a lot more fuel than they are rated for.

 

 

Which cars with stock tanks would fail the pump out test with the +2 gallons allowance in place?  

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18 hours ago, skierman64 said:

 

Similar to getting yelled at by the CC staff for holding the next fuel jug to hand off the fueler from the cold side of the pit in the middle of the fuel stop.  The staff enforcing non-existent rules mid race.  

 

 

 

   Oh your that guy.

 Before I took this gig and was volunteering I walked pit road and  counted over 60 _ 5 gallon jugs sitting on tables even with , in height, or above the wall, it terrified me as a firefighter for 22 years.  So Your the guy that wants to go back to that ?  But you are the guy that wants to be holding up 5gal of gas 7' from where your hyper gas dude pulled the first jug early and splashed a little over a pint. He is dumping the second and your the guy holding the 3rd and who knowes what happens, vapor kisses a rotor, a spinning lug nut off tha team next door, could be lots of stuff that can happen and FIREBALL..  Like has happened 5 times at races I have worked and I pray to and thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that our saftey system's have worked so far an for continued saftey.  But your the guy holding 5gal of gas so when your eyebrows melt to your forehead 7' away you have a decision to make. I have been far to close to a fireball on pit road to the point of the above eybrow melt and seeing the different color coming from the top of the jug, it happens, please take my word for it. Just for giggles start at one end of pit road and count ALL the full gas jugs til you get to the other end.

   This may be the time I should do as my good friend Mike Chisek and move on from this place. If I can last a couple of years after this fact like him that will be cool. Some wonderful people and incredible knowledge is here but sometimes the toxic environment has taken its toll on me.

   Back to your the guy holding the jug and feeling the heat, I know you're intelligent and you have had success so you probably drive decent, what ya goin ta do wit dat jug ?

   Love you guy's Love this club see ya at the track. 

   Oh your the guy, I'll catch ya on the track one day and you can pick up some pointers and time watching me come off the corner correctly as I pull away...

    

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2 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

Which cars with stock tanks would fail the pump out test with the +2 gallons allowance in place?  

Pat of the confusion here is that -  Correct me if I'm wrong - there is nothing in the BCCR that allows for +2 gallons on a car with a stock fuel tank. 

Right or wrong can be debated (and has been, and will be) but the only area the +2 gallon allowance is mentioned is when installing a fuel cell. 

Also - fuel cell stated capacity does not include the surge tank, fill tube, etc.

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5 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Absolutely, there's no reason that start should have been waived off.  I still don't get why the Tuttle car in P2 didn't go, the pace car was clearly on the other side of the grass on pit road.  You'd think a team with pro experience would now how to properly start a race.  

 

 

Which cars with stock tanks would fail the pump out test with the +2 gallons allowance in place?  

 

“stock tanks” don’t get +2 gallons. I won’t name names but I bet there are cars that have “stock tanks” that do in fact hold more than 2 gallons over the stock rated capacity.

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10 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Absolutely, there's no reason that start should have been waived off.  I still don't get why the Tuttle car in P2 didn't go, the pace car was clearly on the other side of the grass on pit road.  You'd think a team with pro experience would now how to properly start a race.  

 

 

Which cars with stock tanks would fail the pump out test with the +2 gallons allowance in place?  

You don’t get +2 on a stock tank, only with a cell do you get extra fuel. Or am I not understanding something correctly?

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Just now, Originalsterm said:

You don’t get +2 on a stock tank, only with a cell do you get extra fuel. Or am I not understanding something correctly?

Enough said, stock tank is stock in shape with no mods to tank and stock fuel limit, just so it clear 🙂

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3 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

   Oh your that guy.

 Before I took this gig and was volunteering I walked pit road and  counted over 60 _ 5 gallon jugs sitting on tables even with , in height, or above the wall, it terrified me as a firefighter for 22 years.  So Your the guy that wants to go back to that ?  But you are the guy that wants to be holding up 5gal of gas 7' from where your hyper gas dude pulled the first jug early and splashed a little over a pint. He is dumping the second and your the guy holding the 3rd and who knowes what happens, vapor kisses a rotor, a spinning lug nut off tha team next door, could be lots of stuff that can happen and FIREBALL..  Like has happened 5 times at races I have worked and I pray to and thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that our saftey system's have worked so far an for continued saftey.  But your the guy holding 5gal of gas so when your eyebrows melt to your forehead 7' away you have a decision to make. I have been far to close to a fireball on pit road to the point of the above eybrow melt and seeing the different color coming from the top of the jug, it happens, please take my word for it. Just for giggles start at one end of pit road and count ALL the full gas jugs til you get to the other end.

   This may be the time I should do as my good friend Mike Chisek and move on from this place. If I can last a couple of years after this fact like him that will be cool. Some wonderful people and incredible knowledge is here but sometimes the toxic environment has taken its toll on me.

   Back to your the guy holding the jug and feeling the heat, I know you're intelligent and you have had success so you probably drive decent, what ya goin ta do wit dat jug ?

   Love you guy's Love this club see ya at the track. 

   Oh your the guy, I'll catch ya on the track one day and you can pick up some pointers and time watching me come off the corner correctly as I pull away...

    

 

Ray, you missed my point, which admittingly wasn't blatant in my previous post.  I know you care about the series and the people.  My point is, if you think it's dangerous, make it a rule in the rulebook that's enforceable.  What you shouldn't do in my opinion is interfere with a team in the middle of a pit stop enforcing something that in your opinion is a good idea for added safety.  At the very least, tell the team after the pit stop is over and they've resumed racing.  

 

My $.02.  

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2 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Ray, you missed my point, which admittingly wasn't blatant in my previous post.  I know you care about the series and the people.  My point is, if you think it's dangerous, make it a rule in the rulebook that's enforceable.  What you shouldn't do in my opinion is interfere with a team in the middle of a pit stop enforcing something that in your opinion is a good idea for added safety.  At the very least, tell the team after the pit stop is over and they've resumed racing.  

 

My $.02.  

Mike I think Ray was right on the point, as  pit marshal at several events we have been told if that happens to stop the team fueling and explain what is wrong. It is a safety issue and you know I even got caught in the moment myself this weekend. Only once. It happens to all of us and he is doing his job for safety of everyone.

 

In my mind safety trumps everything and fire is bad, really bad.

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19 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Absolutely, there's no reason that start should have been waived off.  I still don't get why the Tuttle car in P2 didn't go, the pace car was clearly on the other side of the grass on pit road.  You'd think a team with pro experience would now how to properly start a race.  

 

 

Which cars with stock tanks would fail the pump out test with the +2 gallons allowance in place?  

 

Based on the %volume many oems leave for evap control in 90s and newer cars, I would guess about anything over 16 gal oem capacity could potentially get over the +2 with alot of testing on how to fill it. 

 

The +2 rule is actually pretty close for many of you 12 ish gallon small cars. As a blind guess rule, it actually balanced the two options fairly well. 

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23 minutes ago, 55mini said:

stock fuel limit,

 

Carefully read the rules, stock tanks have a requirement to 1) not be ballooned and 2) be the stock part. We do not control stock fuel tank venting, which is how most oe tanks limit their capacity. The oe vapor float valve stops air in tank from being vented after a certain fill level when using a fuel pump nozzle. 

 

This effectively creates no exact limit on stock tank useable fuel, but does force you to use a stock tank (imagine if we decide\tried to 3d scan your tank, it better match the surface of a stock tank). If you can tilt\rock\wiggle\pray your stock tank into getting more fuel in the evap dead space in the tank, then you can run more. Same for OE parts, if you tilted the car while slowly filling you can overfill OE car systems.

 

 

Edited by Black Magic
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2 hours ago, chip said:

I would love to see that picture- don't know of any BMW that races that has a stock 6' filler neck.  The e30 is about 3' though, but I'm sure we can make it 6' 🤣...

Thanks Ray!

That was only a little bit of that car that raised eyebrows. If it's the car I am thinking about, they are in another series now. 

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3 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Carefully read the rules, stock tanks have a requirement to 1) not be ballooned and 2) be the stock part. We do not control stock fuel tank venting, which is how most oe tanks limit their capacity. The oe vapor float valve stops air in tank from being vented after a certain fill level when using a fuel pump nozzle. 

 

This effectively creates no exact limit on stock tank useable fuel, but does force you to use a stock tank. If you can tilt\rock\wiggle\pray your stock tank into getting more fuel in the evap dead space in the tank, then you can run more. Same for OE parts, if you tilted the car while slowly filling you can overfill OE car systems.

 

 

OK what I should have said was no mods to the tank, oh wait I did and said nothing about the venting. Yes I know the venting can be changed if you don't make any mods to the tank itself.

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16 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Based on the %volume many oems leave for evap control in 90s and newer cars, I would guess about anything over 16 gal oem capacity could potentially get over the +2 with alot of testing on how to fill it. 

 

The +2 rule is actually pretty close for many of you 12 ish gallon small cars. As a blind guess rule, it actually balanced the two options fairly well. 

 

I guess I need to work on my stock tank, I could really use a bit more fuel on each stop.  

 

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I love that it's well known that OE tanks can be manipulated to hold more fuel due to various issues from the OE (evap control, venting, etc.) but people literally want to eliminate the +2 gallons for fuel cells because it's not fair. 

So teams running fuel cells will just rip them out and go to OE tanks that they know they can manipulate to hold more than fuel cells. That sounds like a splendid idea. 

Way to think it through... 🤣

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35 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Ray, you missed my point, which admittingly wasn't blatant in my previous post.  I know you care about the series and the people.  My point is, if you think it's dangerous, make it a rule in the rulebook that's enforceable.  What you shouldn't do in my opinion is interfere with a team in the middle of a pit stop enforcing something that in your opinion is a good idea for added safety.  At the very least, tell the team after the pit stop is over and they've resumed racing.  

 

My $.02.  

We don’t need a rule for everything... keeping fuel jugs on the ground as much as possible is good practice. If I’m behind the wall holding a jug and a fireball poofs up... that poop is getting dropped 100% and it’s going to spill another 6 gallons to feed the flames.

 

If you want a rule, it should be “safe fueling practices not otherwise mentioned can be enforced by marshals at their discretion”.

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4 minutes ago, enginerd said:

We don’t need a rule for everything... keeping fuel jugs on the ground as much as possible is good practice. If I’m behind the wall holding a jug and a fireball poofs up... that poop is getting dropped 100% and it’s going to spill another 6 gallons to feed the flames.

 

If you want a rule, it should be “safe fueling practices not otherwise mentioned can be enforced by marshals at their discretion”.

 

I disagree, mid-pit stop is not the time for the officials opinions to be enforced on a team.  Admittedly with 5 minute stops, it's not as critical as in other series with untimed stops.  

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47 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

   Oh your that guy.

 Before I took this gig and was volunteering I walked pit road and  counted over 60 _ 5 gallon jugs sitting on tables even with , in height, or above the wall, it terrified me as a firefighter for 22 years.  So Your the guy that wants to go back to that ?  But you are the guy that wants to be holding up 5gal of gas 7' from where your hyper gas dude pulled the first jug early and splashed a little over a pint. He is dumping the second and your the guy holding the 3rd and who knowes what happens, vapor kisses a rotor, a spinning lug nut off tha team next door, could be lots of stuff that can happen and FIREBALL..  Like has happened 5 times at races I have worked and I pray to and thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that our saftey system's have worked so far an for continued saftey.  But your the guy holding 5gal of gas so when your eyebrows melt to your forehead 7' away you have a decision to make. I have been far to close to a fireball on pit road to the point of the above eybrow melt and seeing the different color coming from the top of the jug, it happens, please take my word for it. Just for giggles start at one end of pit road and count ALL the full gas jugs til you get to the other end.

   This may be the time I should do as my good friend Mike Chisek and move on from this place. If I can last a couple of years after this fact like him that will be cool. Some wonderful people and incredible knowledge is here but sometimes the toxic environment has taken its toll on me.

   Back to your the guy holding the jug and feeling the heat, I know you're intelligent and you have had success so you probably drive decent, what ya goin ta do wit dat jug ?

   Love you guy's Love this club see ya at the track. 

   Oh your the guy, I'll catch ya on the track one day and you can pick up some pointers and time watching me come off the corner correctly as I pull away...

    


Ray,

My wife was helping our team by handing us the fuel jugs, she was prepositioning them on the pit wall.  Tom came over and advised her not to do this.  The fuel jugs were literally 3’ from where we were dumping fuel in the car, if something bad happened my wife and my son(fire bottle)could have seriously been hurt.  So, thank you and Tom for looking out for our safety even if it isn’t in the rule book!  

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3 hours ago, Ray Franck said:

 If I remember correctly a picture of a BMW that had a 6' neck was discussed and as it was stock from the factory that way, that was the max approved and submitted 

 

It looped from the right side fill point all the way to the left quarter panel and then into the top of the cell in the center of the car.  How would we have said that was from the factory that way?

Edited by Rodger Coan-Burningham
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26 minutes ago, 55mini said:

OK what I should have said was no mods to the tank, oh wait I did and said nothing about the venting. Yes I know the venting can be changed if you don't make any mods to the tank itself.

 

That came out harsher than I meant to write it. I was trying to remind teams that "stock fuel limit" isn't a term with enforcement in the rules when talking about OE fuel tanks.

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7 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

That came out harsher than I meant to write it. I was trying to remind teams that "stock fuel limit" isn't a term with enforcement in the rules when talking about OE fuel tanks.

Its Ok fuel limits right now are a little tense and since I was there maybe too tense on my part also. Mine may appear as harsh also but was kind of meant to be as I have seen some stuff that makes my head spin.

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Ah... um... this may have been mentioned already, but I thought the +/- 2 gallon rule for fuel cells was because it's less expensive to buy a standardized fuel cell which aren't available in all or close too stock sizes? Custom fuel cells get pricey, don't they? Not to mention using those darn displacement balls/blocks....

 

If the above is true, we can't really get (too) upset about a stock tank holding a bit more (2 gallons or less) than the published capacity. 

 

What is fair... and relatively safe? Notice the word 'relatively'. 

 

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1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

 

Ray, you missed my point, which admittingly wasn't blatant in my previous post.  I know you care about the series and the people.  My point is, if you think it's dangerous, make it a rule in the rulebook that's enforceable.  What you shouldn't do in my opinion is interfere with a team in the middle of a pit stop enforcing something that in your opinion is a good idea for added safety.  At the very least, tell the team after the pit stop is over and they've resumed racing.  

 

My $.02.  

 

What you shouldn't do in my opinion is interfere with a team in the middle of a pit stop.

 

@skierman64, really, this was an interference with your pit stop...c'mon!?

 

@Ray Franck thanks for helping us keep our skin, and then some!  Thanks @55mini @enginerd and @Ronh911 for the voices of reason. 🔥

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7 minutes ago, FS SP996 said:

 

What you shouldn't do in my opinion is interfere with a team in the middle of a pit stop.

 

@skierman64, really, this was an interference with your pit stop...c'mon!?

 

@Ray Franck thanks for helping us keep our skin, and then some!  Thanks @55mini @enginerd and @Ronh911 for the voices of reason. 🔥

 

As stated...my opinion. Yes really.  

Opinions are great here on the forum...not so much mid pit stop, mid race.  

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