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2021 RA championship. Displacementgate 2.0 and compression talk


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10 hours ago, Ian said:

What a wild weekend.  We skipped impound and awards since we had nothing on the line.  The rumor mill will be working overtime for sure.

 

 

Hopefully not what with the corroboration provided.... 

Edited by FlorahDorah
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2 hours ago, a914freak said:

By any chance do you know how many sets they used for both days?

No I do not have a count on that.  I know they were running RE71's and Road America can really eat driver side tires when you push the cars like they were. 

2 hours ago, a914freak said:

By any chance do you know how many sets they used for both days?

No I do not have a count on that.  I know they were running RE71's and Road America can really eat driver side tires when you push the cars like they were. 

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Glad to see rules enforced.  I know Mr. Tuttle can be a bit full of himself sometimes and dealing with that overflow is tough.  I'm glad to hear upper management was able to bottle him up and apply the rules.

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4 minutes ago, V2 Motorsports said:

so does pump out capacity include the tank, large filler necks and surge tanks combined? or just what the tank will hold? 

 

I just sent in this ticket:

 

Can I please get the procedure for inspecting the following:

1. Fuel capacity of a fuel cell.
2. Fuel capacity of a fuel cell with internal surge tank.
3. Fuel capacity of a stock tank. (might not be able to easily check the neck on these)

Also:

Is the fill neck included in the capacity limits?

Will the fuel be measured using something with calibrated graduations, weight, or another method, or multiple methods?

Does the stated capacity of the fuel cell matter or only the actual capacity?

Would an unmodified stock tank which holds more than the stated capacity, require displacement blocks to match stated capacity with actual?

Would fuel inspection require the car to be level on the ground?

Would the fuel inspection process require an identical process to fueling?

Are you be prevented from altering the height, pitch or roll of the car during fueling in the pits?

*In our experience there can be well over a gallon difference in the cell capacity based on pitch/roll of the car while fueling.*

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14 minutes ago, V2 Motorsports said:

so does pump out capacity include the tank, large filler necks and surge tanks combined? or just what the tank will hold? 

 

Just the fuel cell. The surge tank can be very easily inspected with a tape measure and is restricted on its own to 2 liters. The filler neck has some restrictions but has no restriction on total capacity. The restrictions are outside diameter and “direct routing”. However, I have seen several filler necks which do not run directly by any stretch of the imagination, so clearly it isn’t well policed.

So the cell itself was measured in this case and found to be oversized.

 

Tuttle actually has this puny little filler neck of about 1’ length. Had they run a ridiculous filler neck like some other teams (I heard that cone crushers has a 6 footer but I didn’t see it for myself. Or maybe it was crowd control? One of the top teams for sure) and a legal fuel cell, they may have had almost the same capacity (but “legally”). So, support petitions restricting filler necks and vents please! It’s absurd.

 

Love that the series enforced the rules and followed through with appropriate action in this case. Definite improvement. 

Edited by enginerd
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12 minutes ago, V2 Motorsports said:

so does pump out capacity include the tank, large filler necks and surge tanks combined? or just what the tank will hold? 

 

I listened to the live stream that was running in impound. Dana was 100% focused on determining only what the cell could hold and clearly stated that he did not want volume in the filler neck, surge and lines. That was able to be clearly heard in the video. 

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9 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I just sent in this ticket:

 

Can I please get the procedure for inspecting the following:

1. Fuel capacity of a fuel cell.
2. Fuel capacity of a fuel cell with internal surge tank.
3. Fuel capacity of a stock tank. (might not be able to easily check the neck on these)

Also:

Is the fill neck included in the capacity limits?

Will the fuel be measured using something with calibrated graduations, weight, or another method, or multiple methods?

Does the stated capacity of the fuel cell matter or only the actual capacity?

Would an unmodified stock tank which holds more than the stated capacity, require displacement blocks to match stated capacity with actual?

Would fuel inspection require the car to be level on the ground?

Would the fuel inspection process require an identical process to fueling?

Are you be prevented from altering the height, pitch or roll of the car during fueling in the pits?

*In our experience there can be well over a gallon difference in the cell capacity based on pitch/roll of the car while fueling.*

If there's that much difference in your cells capacity based on pitch/roll, you've got issues. 

 

We don't need to make this into a huge procedure everytime.  It should be the cell capacity and its pretty easy to measure.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

If there's that much difference in your cells capacity based on pitch/roll, you've got issues. 

 

We don't need to make this into a huge procedure everytime.  It should be the cell capacity and its pretty easy to measure.

 

 

In your testing what did you find?

We've gotten nearly a gallon (in our 15 gallon cell) by changing fuel locations in the paddock so that air pockets are relived.   

2.5 degrees would trap about gallon on ATL SP122A on paper.  More if you push fuel through the vent line.   

Jack stand location alters rake by a couple degrees (we confirm when we check wing angle)   

It may "seem" trival, but its the difference between winning a national championship and not could be where the jackstands are placed.

On Tuttle we noticed slight differences in the tank angles and asked that tech check the angle of the cell since it was pumped out on jack stands.  Its entirely plausible that Tuttle confirmed cell capacity when it was on jack stands and thought they were legal, or close to legal.  

Edited by LuckyKid
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2 hours ago, FlorahDorah said:

 

Hopefully not what with the collaboration provided.... 

 

That's never stopped anyone before.

 

I think in this instance, and based on what I've heard, CCES did everything right.  But I'd still like to see an official statement.

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6 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

In your testing what did you find?

We've gotten nearly a gallon (in our 15 gallon cell) by changing fuel locations in the paddock so that air pockets are relived.   

2.5 degrees would trap about gallon on ATL SP122A on paper.  More if you push fuel through the vent line.   

 

What do you mean by changing fuel locations?  Do you mean different pit stalls?  If so, I seriously doubt there's 2.5 degrees of slope on any pit stalls. 

 

I also have an SP115, and we were having issues getting all of the air out at first. We could bounce the car and get a bit more in.  Turns out that the plastic thread ring was creating an air pocket in the to and not allowing air out. The vent valve is about 3/4" for the top of the cell, so you need to have another vent for the last bit. A simple notch in the ring allows air out now instantly through the filler tube.  But even with that air pocket was only accounting for 1/4 gal at most.

 

9 minutes ago, enginerd said:

The idea is you mount the cell crooked so that when it’s inspected on level ground there is a big bubble in it which displaces volume. But when you refuel in pit stops you jack one side up to level the tank out and get full fuel capacity in there... no air bubble.

 

Its an absurd question because any Tech inspector worth their salt would give you the middle finger and DQ if you wave some rulebook in his face and say “no no, you have to measure this cell at this unlevel orientation which creates an air bubble”.

Jacking the car up would not be legal per the rules. That should be considered "work" and not allowed during refueling. 

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3 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Jacking the car up would not be legal per the rules. That should be considered "work" and not allowed during refueling. 

Well.....that was brought up a few years back and stated if you jack the car up, leave it on the stands, then start the fuel process as normal, finish and put the cap on, then lower the car, it was kosher. 

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Just now, petawawarace said:

 

What do you mean by changing fuel locations?  Do you mean different pit stalls?  If so, I seriously doubt there's 2.5 degrees of slope on any pit stalls. 

 

I also have an SP115, and we were having issues getting all of the air out at first. We could bounce the car and get a bit more in.  Turns out that the plastic thread ring was creating an air pocket in the to and not allowing air out. The vent valve is about 3/4" for the top of the cell, so you need to have another vent for the last bit. A simple notch in the ring allows air out now instantly through the filler tube.  But even with that air pocket was only accounting for 1/4 gal at most.

 

Jacking the car up would not be legal per the rules. That should be considered "work" and not allowed during refueling. 

NCM -  We moved the car from its paddock spot where the car was slopped rear ward about a degree or two, to the main road about 15 feet over which is more level and it was then able to accept about another gallon.  We did have a modified vent, which we've since re-modified prior to Road America. 

You can't jackup a car and then fuel?  I would support this rule but I would also be surprised if someone got black flagged for this as it stands today.

 

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It's good to see that rules are being enforced according to the rule book. People are questioning fuel cell or tank capacity which is also good. If a team out there is not complying to a rule this may have them rethink it and make the car right. Which is good for everyone.

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3 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

NCM -  We moved the car from its paddock spot where the car was slopped rear ward about a degree or two, to the main road about 15 feet over which is more level and it was then able to accept about another gallon.  We did have a modified vent, which we've since re-modified prior to Road America. 

You can't jackup a car and then fuel?  I would support this rule but I would also be surprised if someone got black flagged for this as it stands today.

 

So I also havn't been to any of the US races as I'm stuck in Canada right now.  But allowing the teams to jack up the car and then fuel sure sounds like performing "work". Perhaps that is a rule that needs to be clarified.  

 

Either way, I don't see your logic of the angle changing the capacity by 1 or 2 gallons.  I just did the math on an SP122 cell and at 2.5 degrees, you'd have an airpocket of only 0.4 gals. Thats using the outside dimension of the cell. Inside dimensions, and you'd likely only have .25 Gal.  I understand that its still an advantage, but not as big as you would think.  

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I think the single largest red flag was the fact that several people witnessed and video'd the car taking "24 gallons of fuel" during a pit stop which included four Hunsakers and some fuel from a fifth.

 

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:


Would an unmodified stock tank which holds more than the stated capacity, require displacement blocks to match stated capacity with actual?
 

I was told at tech this would be an automatic trip to EC. I didn’t understand why you could do this with a fuel cell but not a stock tank. But you really can’t argue with tech. 

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47 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

That's never stopped anyone before.

 

I think in this instance, and based on what I've heard, CCES did everything right.  But I'd still like to see an official statement.

 

Of course. I expect an official statement shortly. But that doesn't mean people won't argue about.... something. 

 

To be clear, what's going on in this thread is discussion on the implications... and not the actual penalty (like Daytona). 

Edited by FlorahDorah
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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

So I also havn't been to any of the US races as I'm stuck in Canada right now.  But allowing the teams to jack up the car and then fuel sure sounds like performing "work". Perhaps that is a rule that needs to be clarified.  

 

Either way, I don't see your logic of the angle changing the capacity by 1 or 2 gallons.  I just did the math on an SP122 cell and at 2.5 degrees, you'd have an airpocket of only 0.4 gals. Thats using the outside dimension of the cell. Inside dimensions, and you'd likely only have .25 Gal.  I understand that its still an advantage, but not as big as you would think.  

 

"work" is not allowed to be performed on the car while the fuel cap is off, you can still do work on the car during a fueling pit stop, either before or after the refueling portion (cap off).

 

I think you have a somewhat naive position here, the test needs to not just consider what is a reasonable way to measure the volume, but also prevent the inevitable attempts to fool the test. 

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Just the fuel cell. The surge tank can be very easily inspected with a tape measure and is restricted on its own to 2 liters. The filler neck has some restrictions but has no restriction on total capacity. The restrictions are outside diameter and “direct routing”. However, I have seen several filler necks which do not run directly by any stretch of the imagination, so clearly it isn’t well policed.

So the cell itself was measured in this case and found to be oversized.

 

Tuttle actually has this puny little filler neck of about 1’ length. Had they run a ridiculous filler neck like some other teams (I heard that cone crushers has a 6 footer but I didn’t see it for myself. Or maybe it was crowd control? One of the top teams for sure) and a legal fuel cell, they may have had almost the same capacity (but “legally”). So, support petitions restricting filler necks and vents please! It’s absurd.

 

Love that the series enforced the rules and followed through with appropriate action in this case. Definite improvement. 

Along these lines, shouldn't every team in impound be required to open their hood and trunk for competitors to see their engine compartment, rear trunk/hatch, fuel system, etc.? This didn't happen with one car in impound when we raced at RA in October and it didn't happen again at this race for one car that was in impound. 

Quote

5.4. POST-RACE IMPOUND AND INSPECTION 5.4.1. At the conclusion of every ChampCar Race, the top five (5) finishing vehicles, overall, and class winners, shall be impounded for a period not less than 30 minutes and not more than 90 minutes.

5.4.2. During the impound period, the top five (5) finishing vehicles and class winners impounded must:

5.4.2.1. Present the car’s Logbook to the Chief of Tech.

5.4.2.2. Raise and place the car on four (4) jackstands, a minimum of 12” from the ground or floor level.

5.4.2.3. Remove all four (4) wheels and tires.

5.4.2.4. Open the hood and trunk.

 

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1 minute ago, Snorman said:

Along these lines, shouldn't every team in impound be required to open their hood and trunk for competitors to see their engine compartment, rear trunk/hatch, fuel system, etc.? This didn't happen with one car in impound when we raced at RA in October and it didn't happen again at this race for one car that was in impound. 

 

All cars that I saw had both opened and personally looked and took pictures. This was the second day FYI

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2 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Along these lines, shouldn't every team in impound be required to open their hood and trunk for competitors to see their engine compartment, rear trunk/hatch, fuel system, etc.? This didn't happen with one car in impound when we raced at RA in October and it didn't happen again at this race for one car that was in impound. 

You should request the rules be followed. Ask a tech official to open it. Every time my car is in impound the hood and trunk get opened. Trunk takes a few minutes to open (it doesn’t have hinges and requires me to remove 6 bolts to get it open) but I always do. I agree with you, anyone not doing this should be required to comply no matter how cumbersome. 

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4 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 

"work" is not allowed to be performed on the car while the fuel cap is off, you can still do work on the car during a fueling pit stop, either before or after the refueling portion (cap off).

 

I think you have a somewhat naive position here, the test needs to not just consider what is a reasonable way to measure the volume, but also prevent the inevitable attempts to fool the test. 

 

Sure, I could be.  A tech inspector should see a cell that's not mounted level.  If they see that its off level, they should require the team to level the car. I just don't think that needs to be in a rule book.  100% its illegal if thats what they are doing, and should be caught.

 

Regardless, that's not what happened here unless the fuel cell was 10 degrees off from level.

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