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2021 RA championship. Displacementgate 2.0 and compression talk


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1 minute ago, Snorman said:

Okay. That's not in the BCCR either, lol. 

Seems there are lots of things in the BCCR that were supposedly rules. 

Trust me, we got told all about how keeping a rule book short is the most important thing to membership while discussing issues on most of the cars in impound that had "grey area's" exploited.

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44 minutes ago, Jer said:

Yes of course, but you can't DQ someone because of your nose.  The nose leads you to the race gas, but you need a real test to verify it.  

 

39 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Not really,  offer to buy their gas for 2.80 a gallon.  Or hand them some jugs of 93 and see if they will use it.  😀  Sound is being enforced with a tinker toy, fuel might as well be done with noses.  

 

25 minutes ago, Bandit said:

CC just needs 5 Hunsackers with 93 octane. Paint them a nice bright, obnoxious color of green so everyone knows what they are.

 

Any team failing the sniff test will be required to fill their car, during the race, from the CC "test cans".

 

Refusal=move to EC.

 

Marked lap time increase due to the computer pulling timing trying to save motor?=move to EC

First change the rule,or remind everyone of "factory tolerances" announce it to all members via bravo video and email, add it to the supps

Then

ChampCar buys the questionable/random team a full fuel load and monitors the pitstop to prevent remapping the ecu then watches laptimes.

 

No meter to buy/calibrate/question and it only costs X gallons of fuel to prove.

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2 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Mike, I can say for certain my FSM has one.

A lot of cars have a little dimple that must still be visible after decking, according to the service manual.  Makes is straight forward for any generic shop if they are asked to do machining on a head or block.

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1 minute ago, hotchkis23 said:

Trust me, we got told all about how keeping a rule book short is the most important thing to membership while discussing issues on most of the cars in impound that had "grey area's" exploited.

I have zero issue with people squeaking out more compression by decking heads or blocks and using stock castings and parts. I have a major issue with people doing it using forged, domed racing pistons and other racy parts. 

That's why, to me, throwing a bore scope in a cylinder on occasion to compare to stock pistons is probably more effective than testing octane. 

For example, the OE pistons in the 5.0 Mustangs are flat top, 4-relief/browed forged or hypereutectic units. You won't find a standard bore block, much less stock standard bore pistons for these engines in 2021. But the replacement pistons should be the same OE spec and compression plus whatever rebuild overbore is needed to clean up the block. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Jer said:

Rules say if you can deck the head and block using hand tools, it's penalty free.  

 

Actually I don't think that has been in the rules for the last several years, it was dropped out.

 

Edit: 2016 was the last reference to this requirement. I had to look.  Plus not much else to do but sit over here as we continue to drive south.  Nashville in the horizon, back where spring / summer exist in April. 

Edited by Rodger Coan-Burningham
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57 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


Jerry is a lot smarter than me. See his response you’ll have your answer. 

Jerry is a bookeeper ( and a heck of a driver), I don't expect him to be able to catch cheaters, you are on the TAC.

1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

 

Or rewrite the CCES yellow flag rules to something more realistic. 

Or put GPS nannies in all the cars?

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Just now, ABR-Glen said:

Jerry is a bookeeper ( and a heck of a driver), I don't expect him to be able to catch cheaters, you are on the TAC.

 

I was trying to avoid having to explain fluid volume of a container.  I think you know the answer to your question without me having to explain it.

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Now tell me how tech is going to be able to tell how much someone shaved their heads. Or decked their block.

 

Gonna start CC'ing combustion chambers? Measuring crank centerline to the deck?

 

Myself, I don't see much difference between shaving heads and using domed pistons. Both do about the same thing. You are generally better off to shave the heads however, if you can, as domed pistons are not great for flame travel.

 

An octane limit solves it all.

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Bore on our 4 & 6 cylinder cars doesn't change the size much. Stroking the engine will. Bigger V8's will benefit from boring out because of the size of the cylinder. Shaving the block & decking the cylinder head should always be allowed for rebuilding. I run a 2 liter whats to say I can't bore & stroke it to a 2.4 & still stay in Class B?

 

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4 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

I was trying to avoid having to explain fluid volume of a container.  I think you know the answer to your question without me having to explain it.

Of course. I think you also know that there are lots of ways that the test that was described in this thread could be cheated. 

 

You started your first post in this thread with "I don’t understand this discussion of angle the car sits".  They aren't actually measuring Volume, if they are looking at Levels. 

 

I'm hoping you (as a TAC memeber) would be one of the people suggesting a better test procedure.

I'm sure Drew will be in here any minute reminding us that the test itself is the only real rule that matters. 

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21 minutes ago, Jer said:

That's frustrating.  We should not be enforcing rules that aren't rules.  :(  It's a focus of the Board right now.  

 

 

Similar to getting yelled at by the CC staff for holding the next fuel jug to hand off the fueler from the cold side of the pit in the middle of the fuel stop.  The staff enforcing non-existent rules mid race.  

 

15 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

Actually I don't think that has been in the rules for the last several years, it was dropped out.

 

Edit: 2016 was the last reference to this requirement. I had to look.  Plus not much else to do but sit over here as we continue to drive south.  Nashville in the horizon, back where spring / summer exist in April. 

 

That was spring.  Perfect weather for racing.  

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11 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Jerry is a bookeeper ( and a heck of a driver), I don't expect him to be able to catch cheaters, you are on the TAC.

Or put GPS nannies in all the cars?

Wow, I got demoted from president to bookkeeper.  Oh well, as long as my salary is the same. 😄   Glen, he was referring to my answer-if you can put more gas in the cell by jacking up one side, but we measure it flat on the ground, then it could only have been worse for the team, not better if it was jacked up.    

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Just now, ABR-Glen said:

Of course. I think you also know that there are lots of ways that the test that was described in this thread could be cheated. 

 

You started your first post in this thread with "I don’t understand this discussion of angle the car sits".  They aren't actually measuring Volume, if they are looking at Levels. 

 

I'm hoping you (as a TAC memeber) would be one of the people suggesting a better test procedure.

I'm sure Drew will be in here any minute reminding us that the test itself is the only real rule that matters. 

 

We must be talking about 2 different things.  If we pump out a cell and fill it and it holds more than it is supposed to what difference does the angle make?  It held more than it should.  

Just now, skierman64 said:

That was spring.  Perfect weather for racing. 

 

I must admit both days were awesome to race in.

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Just now, Jer said:

Wow, I got demoted from president to bookkeeper.  Oh well, as long as my salary is the same. 😄   Glen, he was referring to my answer-if you can put more gas in the cell by jacking up one side, but we measure it flat on the ground, then it could only have been worse for the team, not better if it was jacked up.    

 

See, I told you he was smarter than me.  

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I'm certainly not here defending Tuttle, or saying he was legal! Yes, the test worked in that case.

 

I'm saying, if the fuel capacity rule is: Run the pump until fuel stops coming out, then refill the tank until fuel gets to the top and compare to stock capacity+2, I'll be pretty comfortable that I'll never have to worry about running out of fuel again. 

Edited by ABR-Glen
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21 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Now tell me how tech is going to be able to tell how much someone shaved their heads. Or decked their block.

 

I've got a caliper in my tool box.   You put one end on the top of the head and the other on the bottom where the head gasket is.  Then you can read the measurement on the caliper and compare that with the FSM.  

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

I'm certainly not here defending Tuttle, or saying he was legal! Yes, the test worked in that case.

 

I'm saying if the rule is: Run the pump until fuel stops coming out and then refill the tank until fuel gets to the top and compare to stock capacity+2, I'll be pretty comfortable that I'll never have to worry about running out of fuel again. 

 

So yes, that's a different story that will probably have to be dealt with in the future.  Maybe.  To me, and it worked in this race, if we monitor what goes in each stop we will have what we need.  It may not be in the words of Mona Lisa Vito dead-on balls accurate but 4 hunsakers and a splash is almost always going to be more than 20 gallons.  There are multiple ways to go see where it's at if we as a series need to, which worked in this case.

Edited by Rodger Coan-Burningham
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7 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I've got a caliper in my tool box.   You put one end on the top of the head and the other on the bottom where the head gasket is.  Then you can read the measurement on the caliper and compare that with the FSM.  

Have fun pulling your head when you get protested.

 

And that doesn't work on all heads.

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Just now, Bandit said:

Have fun pulling your head when you get protested.

 

And that doesn't work on all heads.

 

Yeah, we have to do something else. Nobody wants to be pulling heads at the end of the day on Sunday. This has been hashed and rehashed multiple times on here, nobody has the magic pill for it.

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