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14 minutes ago, hcsi99 said:

We can't comment on the post that bill made regarding the VPI update so I'll ask it here.  @Bill Strong, what were the changes to the VPI list this time around?  Could we maybe get a red copy with the changes?  Thanks!

I asked him already... he said he’s not doing redlines anymore. Said some BS about “you guys only look at the red”.

Duh, that’s the point. Why would I look at things that haven’t changed?

Said that people have missed changes to their own cars by missing a revision and then only looking for red text in later versions. 
It’s stupid, I know. I said I will wait for Huggins to post a redline because I don’t have the software / knowledge to make a pdf comparison. 

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I believe they use one of these.   

I wouldn't say a Saab is really fun to drive, helping build and drive a car for under $5,000 and then winning Daytona and WGI against a lot of fast expensive cars is fun though.  And its still more fu

Premium dudes has their team name because of @Larry_Prem DudesF-body.     

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3 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

What he said. ^

That absolutely sucks, I wish you would do the redline... It’s a useful tool for those of us that know most of what we already need to know without having to re-read everything, this is how I will fall behind…

 

official, I am falling behind as I will not be looking through everything, so I will never know what changed.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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We will only have one official document. That includes the BCCR. If members want redlines or green copies they wont get if from us. I kid you not, we have had people pull a few editions back copy of something someone else made of a rule book and try and argue against techs decision.

I spoke about this with the CEO and he agreed.

 

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Few thoughts. 

 

1. The VPI model is working well. The variety of cars winning is a clear indicator of that. There are a few small issues and a minority of loud dissenters but it is working well right now. 

2. I do think fuel for points should be looked at and if added should be very expensive. It will be a bigger issue as newer cars with small tanks are added to the series. Already an issue for some cars. Neon comes to mind. I'd add Civic to that list if RBank wasn't so successful with their CRX. 

3. I'm indifferent to how changes to the VPI or rule book are tracked, but they should be tracked and shared. Redline, revision log, tech article list, or some other method would be fine. It should be done. If you want one official document use a method different then redline. It is a standard best practice in documentation just like versioning and naming conventions. The compare versions above are a great example of what would be reasonable. 

Edited by veris
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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

What car? example? Would it handle well? Would it be so heavy the extra hp only does so much? I would think limiting max hp would solve it.

Gen II GM F-body is a good platform w/ a large tank, tons of aftermarket support and they are raced all over.  Some classes ban them on the circle track. Additional HP and torque help out of the corners and pull more speed on the straights. If you have the ability to pass a bunch of cars on the straights and just hold your own in the corners you have a fast car. Now that said, it is dependent on the driver as well. 

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

A quick history, from my perspective.

 

2009 series starts and offshoot of Lemons. $500 value car.  You found craigslist or other adds, 10 of them, and average the values. Finding 10 adds below $500 was like a full time job. When I got up in the morning I would search regions, then found searchallofcraigslist.com and would do a search there. I would search before breakfast, before lunch, after lunch, before dinner, after dinner. You needed to look multiple times to try to find them.  You brought your 10 average and then had money to spend on upgrades. CC kept a database of these. Who knows how many of the adds were fake.

 

Then comes the VPI era and $ to points and swap value. They took all the values, from different teams, and put them into the VPI database. They used judgement on most and looked at swaps and be fair. Some people complained, well they still do, but it worked.

 

Over time some things were adjusted up or down as needed. American muscle was given lower VPI to encourage the platforms and the older American cars, with solid axles, were usually not as good so no one really cared.

 

I did create a VPI calculator, in which you input 9 variables with different weights for each(hp, weight, capacity, drivetrain, age, brake type, lsd, rear end, reliability)  and it will give you a VPI. I did put that up to a bunch of cars on the VPI list and swapped cars and the values are very close and shows the VPI values are pretty good, some a little low and some too high, but overall pretty good.  I think TAC has something similar to use as needed for new vehicles.

Thank you Troy, that is the type answer I was looking for.

Did your VPI calculator give the same results when applied to a swapped vehicle?

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2 minutes ago, veris said:

Few thoughts. 

 

1. The VPI model is working well. The variety of cars winning is a clear indicator of that. There are a few small issues and a minority of loud dissenters but it is working well right now. 

2. I do think fuel for points should be looked at and if added should be very expensive. It will be a bigger issue as newer cars with small tanks are added to the series. Already an issue for some cars. Neon comes to mind. I'd add Civic to that list if RBank wasn't so successful with their CRX. 

3. I'm indifferent to how changes to the VPI or rule book are tracked, but they should be tracked and shared. Redline, revision log, tech article list, or some other method would be fine. It should be done. If you want one official document use a method different then redline. It is a standard best practice in documentation just like versioning and naming conventions. This wouldn't be acceptable in any serious place of work; that should say something. 

 

 

Good points.
There are so many hands involved in this task now. All I get is an excel sheet that I have to make fit on a printable page of paper.
 

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On 5/4/2021 at 2:28 PM, Bandit said:

Is that really happening here?

No torches lit yet

 

Just conversation about what can be done, hell, it damaged my less tech savvy teammate seeing stock (tortured) rotors, no brake ducts and seemingly nothing done past caging a carbureted street car, it was well driven and prepped by a great team. (I'm sure we missed whatever was their secret sauce was, but it sure presented stock on the podium)

In contrast

We have 4 x 3.5in brake ducts on 12.75 in rotors, extensive gutting, electronic engine/trans control and 100s of hours fretting over every corner of our car.

Now

My teammate wants a 3 speed auto/holly carb something... its making me crazy as we are looking for smaller, lighter to save consumables.

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

No torches lit yet

 

Just conversation about what can be done, hell, it damaged my less tech savvy teammate seeing stock (tortured) rotors, no brake ducts and seemingly nothing done past caging a carbureted street car, it was well driven and prepped by a great team. (I'm sure we missed whatever was their secret sauce was, but it sure presented stock on the podium)

In contrast

We have 4 x 3.5in brake ducts on 12.75 in rotors, extensive gutting, electronic engine/trans control and 100s of hours fretting over every corner of our car.

Now

My teammate wants a 3 speed auto/holly carb something... its making me crazy as we are looking for smaller, lighter to save consumables.

Just looked it up. 2019 Inday.

 

Sat Bandit's TA (Not this Bandit) finished 12th.

Sun it finished 13th.

 

So not on the podium either day. https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Events/1693245

 

4 seconds a lap slower than Tuttles, likely cheaty, fast lap and 2 sec/lap slower than Premium Dudes E30.

 

I should note the Dirty Cougar with a 380hp Coyote was 1 sec/lap slower than Premium Dudes.

 

Handling is more important than horsepower in road racing so put the pitchforks away.

 

I can put up a vid with all the calcs if some would like.

 

btw-All this is telling me, and should tell others, is that a 2nd gen F body is a good car that doesn't need a top to bottom rebuild to have a decent ride. It's not an overdog. It will burn a lot of gas and take big expensive tires however.

Edited by Bandit
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7 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Perhaps they represented a D class win.

 

What's the fascination with auto's anyway? Other than the 75 free points? (I've actually fantasized about a 6L80E but that's difficult and expensive without a Gen 4/LS ecu controlled engine. Controller isn't standalone.)

 

I'd guess making a TH350 or 400 live wouldn't be difficult at all with a decent cooler.

 

I've got a spare 750dp Holley if you are out. 😀 

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Unofficially

 

Make: Pontiac
Model: Trans Am (8 cyl)
Year: 1980
VPi: 150
Car Weight: 3145
Original HP: 222
New HP: 255
Points Added to VPi: 128
--->NEW VPI: 278

 

not worth the swap. You can add aluminum heads to the "stock" 350 for 100.  I was thinking more along the line of Gen II F-body 350 4speed (no points) cam, headers, intake, heads = 225 + 150 = 375, moog springs free, bilstein's free, C6 brakes free, Ball joints 10? 

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2 minutes ago, Bandit said:

What's the fascination with auto's anyway? Other than the 75 free points? (I've actually fantasized about a 6L80E but that's difficult and expensive without a Gen 4/LS ecu controlled engine. Controller isn't standalone.)

 

I'd guess making a TH350 or 400 live wouldn't be difficult at all with a decent cooler.

 

I've got a spare 750dp Holley if you are out. 😀 

who doesn't have a spare Holley? We ran the 700r4 for 3 races. ehhh it held up well but we did modify it and used the AC condenser as the cooler. It was just a pig always in the wrong gear. 

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