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8 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Don't bother with rusty crap, buy/ship a clean shell from a rust-less state, save 2 years and 6000 hours.

 

I have several 327 here, one of em should be large journal...

The problem there is 1st gen Camaro's are not like early Mustangs. A decent shell is going to be $$$$. Frankly the best option I found a while back was a roached/gutted but fairly solid Firebird for $5k.

 

Speaking of large journal 327's, no need to dig up one of those as they are the same bore as a 350. However, the first 302's in 1967 were in fact small journal 327 blocks with a forged 283 crank. The 68's and 9's are just a 350 block (2 bolt in 68. 4 in 69) with the unique large journal 302 crank. 4" bore x 3" stroke, same as the Ford.

 

So if a guy has a 283 crank, I'm told they are all forged, and a small 327 that is the cheapest way to build one. The 3" large journal crank from Eagle is around $600 and all 302's require unique pistons due to compression height, so they are pricier as well. IIRC a 6" rod allows a common CH 11:1 350 slug but would have to check to be sure.

 

Doubt Ray would dig that deep. 😀

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I believe they use one of these.   

I wouldn't say a Saab is really fun to drive, helping build and drive a car for under $5,000 and then winning Daytona and WGI against a lot of fast expensive cars is fun though.  And its still more fu

Premium dudes has their team name because of @Larry_Prem DudesF-body.     

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Digging up some old old memories here. I am just old enough to have gotten in at the end of Modified eliminator class racing. Back then everything was based on pounds per cubic inch, and you wanted the smallest engine possible to make your weight break. Destroking 283’s, 283 cranks in 350 blocks with bearing spacers, welding up iron heads, all kinds of fun times.

 

I still have Jenkins book, for the year it was published it had the most up to date and in-depth info ever published. Of course, everything moved on, but it is still a great read.

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4 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

The OD was not engineered for road racing. It will fail. You may get a race out of it using OD but detention is inevitable. What infinity has done with that platform is well beyond most of our skills. A GM or Ford auto OD unit behind a V8 without serious modification is like going shy diving without a parachute. Death is inevitable.

 

 

  I have been a Ford truck person my entire life. I have owned 2 trucks since 1985 and put over a quarter million miles on each truck. 
 

  One year ago I went to buy another truck. Ford likes me. They gave me a V8 10 speed auto to drive for the weekend. The transmission sounded like a Folgers can with a handful of nickels in it.  And the price!!!!!! 62 grand for a freaking pickup truck!!!!! 
 

  I then called a cutie petutie that lives in my development who sells Toyota Tundras. Purchased a 2018 5.7 Tundra with 25k miles for a very good price. I was almost shot at dawn by my fellow work mates for my unpatriotic purchase. My mother and brother have officially disowned me. My Father in-law, a silver star recipient for valor in combat with 3 Purple Hearts has not spoke to me since August of last year. But........I have not had a problem with this truck. 

 

I do not believe Ford likes me anymore. 

 

 


 

 

That truck is made in Texas i think. So you are good! 

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39 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

I still have Jenkins book, for the year it was published it had the most up to date and in-depth info ever published. Of course, everything moved on, but it is still a great read.

Pretty amazing some of the things guys were doing back in Grumpy's day. There were no aftermarket heads like today. The best option were the 292 turbos over the Chevy parts counter and they didn't flow until a guy spent 40-80 hours grinding on them. Today a guy can buy heads off the shelf that will outflow the Grump's best.

 

I recall reading that AMC guys, don't recall if it was for drag or TA/Nascar, would take two heads and saw them in half lengthwise at different heights. Then they would weld the two taller sections together to raise the port heights. Insane.

 

Some of the earlier aftermarket heads, other than Westlakes and such, were actually the Battens for small blocks Olds in the late 70's. They came about due to AJ Foyt and his Olds Nascar program. Still considered a very good head, but much like the 292's take a lot of work to really flow.

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2 hours ago, turbogrill said:

That truck is made in Texas i think. So you are good! 


Indeed. San Antonio. I had a tour through the plant in 16. GM builds it Tahoe, Suburban and Escalade in Arlington. 
‘The Tundra is the most American made truck along with being the most reliable half ton. Yet Ford and GM wonder why their trucks do not have the reliability of the Tundra?! Quite making sh-t in Rumania, Mexico and Europe.

 

Unfortunately it is all about the Benjamin’s.

 

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18 hours ago, gundy said:

Thank you Troy, that is the type answer I was looking for.

Did your VPI calculator give the same results when applied to a swapped vehicle?

It does give similar values with a swapped veh to the swap math. Meaning, today a 300 point vehicle that does swap A gets an additional 150 points. When using the calculator it adjusts up to like 450 points.

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16 hours ago, Bandit said:

Add 50 for valvetrain unless you want to roll the dice on stamped rockers with that cam. If changing from QJet add 25. Swaybar(s) 20/40 points. Apparently 20 points for bumpsteer kit. Are heims still included with sways or did that change too?

 

Even on an old underpowered low point car they add up fast.

 

Benefits of a full Vortec swap versus just the heads is you get a 1 pc seal block, roller lifters, decent compression and likely a 4 bolt main. Since they were all fuel injected you can likely just throw some rings and bearings at it. Mine still has the crosshatch showing with over 100K on it. The Vortec heads will make more than enough power for CC untouched but are heavier than the AL heads obviously.

aren't 86ish and up SBC all one piece seal and roller? I know the 88 is. We use factory sway bars, no bumpsteer and no heims. We were still using the factory Qjet until the new build, with the points so low we added an RPM air gap and Race 2bbl Holley. Not sure how that will work. We did a garage rebuild on the motor, rings/bearings/cam/t-chain...all the usual stuff. We used a set of new stamped rockers, however we do have a set of 1.6 rollers, too lazy to check and see if they clear. Runs pretty good for a 305. Same additions to a 350 would really wake things up. The Vortec's are nice motors thou. I am under the impression the date coded blocks are not important. Down side is the 15.6 gallon tank. We can only do 1.5 hours, which is fine... 

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10 hours ago, Bandit said:

The first car needs to be done before thinking about a 1st gen.

 

For a 302 sbc with it's high winding tendencies I'd probably have Performance  Engine and Machine do the work on the short block. Already have the correct heads.

 

Saying that, while all the replacement metal is available and not terribly expensive, one of those shells would require a frame table to put enough together to avoid being a tube car. Floor pans and firewall, which include the subframe mounts, trunk, rear rails, rockers all shot. While it wouldn't need to be perfect in appearance, it would need everything squared correctly. Like I was saying; Big project.

 

But I doubt filling the seat would ever be an issue.

 

*There was a very nice one on copart that got t boned in the drivers door that would be easier. Never did see what it went for. It was BENT but beautiful condition otherwise.

That is the problem here on the east coast  Gen I and Gen II's are either rust buckets or people want stupid money. I have seen a few rollers/shells for 2k, of course if it is a T/A or Z28 the price jumps pretty quickly. My buddy had a with/blue 71 T/A superduty 455 car. It was in good shape... he was going to restore it but sold it. If I had room I might have snagged it. 

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6 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

That is the problem here on the east coast  Gen I and Gen II's are either rust buckets or people want stupid money. I have seen a few rollers/shells for 2k, of course if it is a T/A or Z28 the price jumps pretty quickly. My buddy had a with/blue 71 T/A superduty 455 car. It was in good shape... he was going to restore it but sold it. If I had room I might have snagged it. 

73/74 were the SD455 cars, earlier were HO455. Still fun though!

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

It does give similar values with a swapped veh to the swap math. Meaning, today a 300 point vehicle that does swap A gets an additional 150 points. When using the calculator it adjusts up to like 450 points.

 

So with that swap calculator the "use the highest model" doesn't make sense right?

 

Ideally (numbers might be off but):

- a E30 318i with 100hp should be 250pts with your calculator

- a E30 318i with 170hp should be 450pts with your calculator (swapped) 

- a E30 325i with 170hp should be 450pts with your calculator 

Or maybe a swapped 318i should be a little less then 450pts if it has smaller tank or anything else that makes it less good.

 

Isn't the "use the highest model" a bandaid for an imperfect calculator? Or is there anything else?

 

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2 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

aren't 86ish and up SBC all one piece seal and roller? I know the 88 is. We use factory sway bars, no bumpsteer and no heims. We were still using the factory Qjet until the new build, with the points so low we added an RPM air gap and Race 2bbl Holley. Not sure how that will work. We did a garage rebuild on the motor, rings/bearings/cam/t-chain...all the usual stuff. We used a set of new stamped rockers, however we do have a set of 1.6 rollers, too lazy to check and see if they clear. Runs pretty good for a 305. Same additions to a 350 would really wake things up. The Vortec's are nice motors thou. I am under the impression the date coded blocks are not important. Down side is the 15.6 gallon tank. We can only do 1.5 hours, which is fine... 

87 and up iirc for 1 piece. Not all had rollers though while the Vortecs did. I was just saying that it would make more sense to swap a complete Vortec into the 2nd gen being discussed as the original 350 in one of those won't have all that. Same with the other things like sways, etc.

 

ScottyK has a nice 22 gal Fuel Safe for sale in the classifieds here for a real nice price. Displace it down or go all Tuttle with it. 🤣

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42 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Isn't the "use the highest model" a bandaid for an imperfect calculator? Or is there anything else?

Exactly. It wouldn’t really be needed if the calculator were a little different...

 

bear with me for a sec... 

Current calc says “I don’t care what your starting point was, I care about the ending” so two cars of different trim level but same everything else, let’s say one is the econo with 100 hp and one has 150 hp. They both swap in a 200 hp engine, they both pay 60 pts for it (50 base + 10 based on the new PWR) and now they are identical cars. But the econo started at 300 VPI and the other trim started at 350 (easy numbers throughout for simplicity). So we now have two identical cars but one is 300+60=360 pts, and one is 350+60=410 pts. The “highest trim” rule stops you from using this lower trim to get an unintended 50 point advantage. 
 

So thats how it is now. 
 

A way to solve that would have been to add another term to the equation which accounts for gain in power. base value + final PWR value + gain value. So if the gain value in our example is 1 pt per hp, the final value of both trims would be 460. Reducing the fixed 50 would make sense along with adding this additional term.
 

So this is an easy numbers example of a way to make it so that starting trim doesn’t matter. It’s all moot now because the weights and VPIs have been fudged based on the current formula, so they would have to be refudged if the formula changed. 

Edited by enginerd
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18 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

3rd is our most melted clutch pack, 700r4/4l60 will do the same.

 

When Nissan 3rd dies, power flow is interrupted, skip shifting or continuing in 4th is not a option, not sure how a 4l60 would fare.

 

Terrible, helped a team with one behind a LT1. 

 

A quick Google search of the #of clutches in each pack will show you how fragile OD (4th) is. It would sort of live if you never shifted to 4th

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On 5/5/2021 at 11:27 AM, Black Magic said:

 

Terrible, helped a team with one behind a LT1. 

 

A quick Google search of the #of clutches in each pack will show you how fragile OD (4th) is. It would sort of live if you never shifted to 4th

Fortunately Nissan made 2/4 a big ol band, If we are ever looking to run a 4l60 I will be having a conversation with you/that team beforehand to discuss mode of failure.

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11 hours ago, Bandit said:

Pretty amazing some of the things guys were doing back in Grumpy's day. There were no aftermarket heads like today. The best option were the 292 turbos over the Chevy parts counter and they didn't flow until a guy spent 40-80 hours grinding on them. Today a guy can buy heads off the shelf that will outflow the Grump's best.

 

 

 

Yeah bone stock heads off of a 90’s pickup…

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39 minutes ago, Bandit said:

87 and up iirc for 1 piece. Not all had rollers though while the Vortecs did. I was just saying that it would make more sense to swap a complete Vortec into the 2nd gen being discussed as the original 350 in one of those won't have all that. Same with the other things like sways, etc.

 

ScottyK has a nice 22 gal Fuel Safe for sale in the classifieds here for a real nice price. Displace it down or go all Tuttle with it. 🤣

 

Blitz ran a Vortec, but I believe that was in the days before the swap calculator, and a 350 pickup engine value was next to nothing.

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7 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

 

Yeah bone stock heads off of a 90’s pickup…

Nah. Stock Vortec's flow 235cfm intake. Well short of the 300cfm eating iron dust will get you with old 292 heads.

 

The point I was making is you can buy 300+cfm, and much higher, heads right off the shelf, saving a couple weeks of solid work and the talent to do it.

 

The old stock heads can be made to flow quite a bit better than stock vortecs. The Vortecs just save work. Simple pocket porting of the old OE iron will make more power than one would ever need in CC.

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I'm ready, have a 68 project in the garage with c5 brakes already and a speedteh front subframe.  

 

The real problem is how much these cars cost now days.  They are now selling repo bodies for almost $10K so an original one is getting stupid.  A decent roller is somewhere between 10K-15K.   

68 camaro.jpg

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Beautiful car.  

 

That $5k (guessing.) front subframe is only ten points. 🤣

 

One would think the repro bodies would knock the price down on rough, non rare VIN/body plated, shells but doesn't seem to have had much effect.

 

With enough searching a useable 2nd gen, especially a later one, can be found somewhat reasonable, but 1st gens are nuts.

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30 minutes ago, smitham32803 said:

I'm ready, have a 68 project in the garage with c5 brakes already and a speedteh front subframe.  

 

The real problem is how much these cars cost now days.  They are now selling repo bodies for almost $10K so an original one is getting stupid.  A decent roller is somewhere between 10K-15K.   

68 camaro.jpg

What is your tolerance for tossing it in the crusher?
 

The stupid clean first gen mustang running champ in the east, sustained rear 1/4 panel damage that would make a restoration difficult,(whole rear clip shifted @ the rear windshield) they still race, but personally think there are better uses for classics then the track.

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