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How were or are VPI's arrived at


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38 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

What is considered tube frame. And a 140 point rear subframe swap after the 50 point tech article disappeared. 

When did tube frame stuff change?  Afaik,  tubeframes were never allowed.  

 

Perhaps, with some pictures, we could come up with a solution!

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2 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

When did tube frame stuff change?  Afaik,  tubeframes were never allowed.  

 

Perhaps, with some pictures, we could come up with a solution!

A post explaining our situation was just made separate of here 

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7 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Not all of them are swapped.  Also, the car with the most champcar victories wasn't the c rx, it is a Saab from rbank.

So we'll just ignore Rbank's CRX that won the championship while having the most advantageously adjusted swap weight in the series. 

 

Ok.

 

I bet a lot of other teams would be pretty fast as well if they could swap to 8:1 power to weight while having plenty of points left over.

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29 minutes ago, Bandit said:

So we'll just ignore Rbank's CRX that won the championship while having the most advantageously adjusted swap weight in the series. 

 

Ok.

 

I bet a lot of other teams would be pretty fast as well if they could swap to 8:1 power to weight while having plenty of points left over.

There are other cars with a better swap weight fudging than the CRX. You can’t look at a CRX curb weight and compare it to, say, a BMW curb weight because the CRX didn’t have plush leather seats... had bad speakers... maybe no AC.. limited to no sound deadening... crank windows...etc. etc. comparing those curb weights is apples and oranges because nobody races a car without stripping the dead weight first. 
 

i know roughly the power and weight of the RBank crx... have wrenched on it a few times and drove it in October... it ain’t even close to 8:1

Edited by enginerd
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45 minutes ago, Bandit said:

So we'll just ignore Rbank's CRX that won the championship while having the most advantageously adjusted swap weight in the series. 

 

Ok.

 

I bet a lot of other teams would be pretty fast as well if they could swap to 8:1 power to weight while having plenty of points left over.

No, I just said rbank.  You assumed CRX.

 

I was clarifying that I was talking about the Saab.

 

We can talk about the c rx if ya wanna.  If it's got a bad swap weight, bring it to the tac for clarification.

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47 minutes ago, enginerd said:

There are other cars with a better swap weight fudging than the CRX.

 

Care to list those?  At a swap weight ~300lbs heavier than stock the CRX is fairly egregious.

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31 minutes ago, enginerd said:

There are other cars with a better swap weight fudging than the CRX. You can’t look at a CRX curb weight and compare it to, say, a BMW curb weight because the CRX didn’t have plush leather seats... had bad speakers... maybe no AC.. limited to no sound deadening... crank windows...etc. etc. comparing those curb weights is apples and oranges because nobody races a car without stripping the dead weight first. 

 

Actual weights don't matter as about 2 minutes after the swap calc went online it was bastardized into a way to adjust the performance of various cars and used to create haves and have not's. Between it's inflated "swap weight" and 150 point VPI, which was not adjusted up unlike several other cars that showed good performance, it can swallow a better power to weight than any car in the series. 

 

31 minutes ago, enginerd said:

 

i know roughly the power and weight of the RBank crx... have wrenched on it a few times and drove it in October... it ain’t even close to 8:1

Immaterial what it actually has versus the limit. To offset the way the calc ramps points the extreme weight adjustment allows a high powered swap while retaining loads of points to make any other mods. If the weight was anywhere near accurate there would be fewer points to spend after the swap it does have. 

And it's certainly not underpowered as I watched it pull a healthy V8 Camaro at RA.

 

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2 minutes ago, Grufton said:

Care to list those?  At a swap weight ~300lbs heavier than stock the CRX is fairly egregious.

I didn’t actually check the swap weights and didn’t have them committed to memory. 300 lbs over stock is higher than I assumed. I was thinking of the mr2 and e30.

 

You must keep in mind that the swap weights were fudge factors all along. 450 was considered to be a good spot for the e30, and 500 was considered good for e30 + 189 hp swap. The ‘weight’ was shifted until that happened.
 

The question you should be asking is not “is this swap weight for the CRX too high?” The real question should be “is the value of a CRX with a XXX hp engine swap too low?”.

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12 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

Care to list those?  At a swap weight ~300lbs heavier than stock the CRX is fairly egregious.

It's actually more than 300;

Quote
Curb weights
  CRX CRX HF
  Manual Manual
1988 1,922 lb (872 kg) 1,819 lb (825 kg)
Quote

Make: Honda
Model: Civic/CRX
Year: 1988
VPi: 150
Car Weight: 2318
Original HP: 105
New HP: 200
Points Added to VPi: 285
--->NEW VPI: 435

 

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I am not going to get baited into some argument, but please at least use the CRX Si numbers if you are going to complain. Why do you keep using the CRX HF numbers? Who is running one? 

Base weight without options: 
image.png.2016cd174a9e8d80f21c169846019845.png
 

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3 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

I am not going to get baited into some argument, but please at least use the CRX Si numbers if you are going to complain. Why do you keep using the CRX HF numbers? Who is running one? 

Base weight without options: 
image.png.2016cd174a9e8d80f21c169846019845.png
 

I posted both regular CRX and HF.

 

Also, it has been shown as an 88 CRX on previous entries. Not a 91 as you posted the weight for.

40.   rbankracing.com - Champ Contender 194 1988 Honda CRX
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2 minutes ago, Bandit said:

I posted both regular CRX and HF.

 

Also, it has been shown as an 88 CRX on previous entries. Not a 91 as you posted the weight for.

40.   rbankracing.com - Champ Contender 194 1988 Honda CRX


The regular and HF are not even allowed to swap per the rules. You HAVE TO start with an Si value in order to swap per 4.5.7, and the RBank car raced in 2020 and 2021 is indeed a 1991 Honda CRX Si despite what registration may show. 

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Just to try and stop your conspiracy, it looks like at some races it even shows the car as a 1991 in registration. The logbook is what really matters as it is presented in tech. 

image.png.f131e52faca8386c5a6687b3905aa252.png

The registration name doesn't really matter though, just something for the broadcasters to use and is not used internally. 

Just look at someone with a sense of humor:

image.png.daab217430aab25c7f3ed3ff3919cce9.png

 

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1 hour ago, Bandit said:

Make: Honda
Model: Civic/CRX
Year: 1988
VPi: 150
Car Weight: 2318
Original HP: 105
New HP: 200
Points Added to VPi: 285
--->NEW VPI: 435

You can try and steer away from the actual discussion, it is hard to put the proper year on the reg I'm sure, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

150 points for 4 wheel wishbone suspension, very low weight, and due to an inflated swap weight the ability to throw in a better power ratio than any car in the series while having points left for all the aero. 

 

Wins races and the championship while Nissan's and Ford's get VPI increases. Nice way to live.

Edited by Bandit
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37 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

Just to try and stop your conspiracy, it looks like at some races it even shows the car as a 1991 in registration. The logbook is what really matters as it is presented in tech. 

image.png.f131e52faca8386c5a6687b3905aa252.png

The registration name doesn't really matter though, just something for the broadcasters to use and is not used internally. 

Just look at someone with a sense of humor:

image.png.daab217430aab25c7f3ed3ff3919cce9.png

 

Hey man... all this shows is that the genius running the Premium Dudes team is a stickler for details and accuracy. Even got the colors right. 

Edited by enginerd
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33 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Hey man... all this shows is that the genius running the Premium Dudes team is a stickler for details and accuracy. Even got the colors right. 


Good job! 

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2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

bring it to the tac for clarification

 

BOD is the target audience for that discussion. It is well known that several "not swap weights" are erroneous, some by a significant fraction of a ton. 

 

TAC can help verify the validity of the claim and help weigh in, but your elected officials and CEO make these decisions. I would inquire there first. 

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23 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

BOD is the target audience for that discussion. It is well known that several "not swap weights" are erroneous, some by a significant fraction of a ton. 

 

TAC can help verify the validity of the claim and help weigh in, but your elected officials and CEO make these decisions. I would inquire there first. 

Thing is, the BOD/CEO approved the increased "swap weights" in the first place. Really think they will roll them back?

 

Especially after they had the opportunity to raise VPI's on winning cars, and did so on several, while completely passing over the ones with adjusted weights.

 

Isn't happening and precedent backs that up.

Edited by Bandit
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1 hour ago, Bandit said:

Thing is, the BOD/CEO approved the increased "swap weights" in the first place. Really think they will roll them back?

 

Especially after they had the opportunity to raise VPI's on winning cars, and did so on several, while completely passing over the ones with adjusted weights.

 

Isn't happening and precedent backs that up.

Well, different ceo.   Some different faces on the board too.  Some different faces in tech also....

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5 hours ago, enginerd said:

I didn’t actually check the swap weights and didn’t have them committed to memory. 300 lbs over stock is higher than I assumed. I was thinking of the mr2 and e30.

 

You must keep in mind that the swap weights were fudge factors all along. 450 was considered to be a good spot for the e30, and 500 was considered good for e30 + 189 hp swap. The ‘weight’ was shifted until that happened.
 

The question you should be asking is not “is this swap weight for the CRX too high?” The real question should be “is the value of a CRX with a XXX hp engine swap too low?”.

 

I was shocked to see that I was the only one to put in a petition to have swapped VPI. I doubt it will be approved. 

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1 minute ago, mhr650 said:

I was shocked to see that I was the only one to put in a petition to have swapped VPI. I doubt it will be approved. 

I didn't write a petition because that ship has sailed... we're in full blown sunken costs now, no turning back.

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10 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I didn't write a petition because that ship has sailed... we're in full blown sunken costs now, no turning back.

Hey, we at least check things like fuel capacity and stroke now...if only we could admit that used plastic realtor signs are plastic and not "flimsy" plastic so should be charged less pts. per sq/ft.....I give the pass on that as a growing pain of the series enforcing rules as written and not as argued.

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Not trying to thread jack this away from the crx talk and swap calculator talk but someone explain how the VPI for a 1992 Nissan 240sx was valued at 350 points? It makes almost no horsepower (155 hp) and the suspension is decent. I know its not that heavy when gutted out but I do think it is a little steep at 350 points. I'm more curious rather than complaining haha

 

Thanks

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4 minutes ago, Eggy44 said:

............ someone explain how the VPI for a 1992 Nissan 240sx was valued at 350 points? It makes almost no horsepower (155 hp) and the suspension is decent. I know its not that heavy when gutted out but I do think it is a little steep at 350 points. I'm more curious rather than complaining haha

 

Thanks

Because its a serious contender when swapped to a more race appropriate driveline.

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20 minutes ago, Eggy44 said:

Not trying to thread jack this away from the crx talk and swap calculator talk but someone explain how the VPI for a 1992 Nissan 240sx was valued at 350 points? It makes almost no horsepower (155 hp) and the suspension is decent. I know its not that heavy when gutted out but I do think it is a little steep at 350 points. I'm more curious rather than complaining haha

 

Thanks

I've wondered this as well.  Iirc, it matches up fairly well with a 2nd gen rx7 that is 300 pts for an 89 to 91.

 

18.5 gallons, 160 hp, starting weight around 2900#.  <- rx7 stats.

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