mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 Looking to change up our steering system. As it stands now we have 4 heim joints in our steering system as a Bump steer elimination kit for the s10, and is 20 points. Steers great, nice and easy. if we go to a manual rack and pinion, that is 10 points, but the TRZ kit includes 2 heim joints to eliminate bump steer, so back to the 20 points. TRZ kit is for sale locally in fb marketplace. Should we just unhook the lines, depower the rack, and see how it feels on a drive? What advantages do you have with a rack and pinion other than shaving 20-30 lbs? How will steering effort be different between depowered box vs manual on a 2500-2600lb vehicle? We would like to repurpose the PS pump to move fluids for another cooler, and not take points for the cooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, mgoblue06 said: 20-30 lbs? You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump. General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack! Edited May 4, 2021 by Team Infiniti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) FWIW the best handling car of all the teams I have helped has a steering box (not a rack). Geometry makes the difference, which is harder to achieve but not impossible with a steering box. Depowering a GM box?....you will most likely want to disassemble the box to weld up the valve or swap to a much bigger T bar. Without going into great detail on this (you can google) the spring (the t bar) you wind up (when turning the wheel against a load) to open the valve that provides the desired power steering pressure will give the steering some displacement before it becomes stiff. This low rate band can be annoying to the driver, and if you turn the wheel back and forth with motor off (car on ground) you will see what I mean (if your car has a soft t bar). Repowering racks and steering boxes is a pretty well documented thing, both on youtube and as a service provided by shops. I would steer (I know, bad dad joke) away from oem manual steering boxes. They usually have very low steering ratios, you don't want the drivers asking for a trucker steering knob to make turns.... Edited May 4, 2021 by Black Magic 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 56 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump. General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack! You would honestly be surprised how we have sucked up points. Shoot me a Pm and I can tell you about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Black Magic said: FWIW the best handling car of all the teams I have helped has a steering box (not a rack). Geometry makes the difference, which is harder to achieve but not impossible with a steering box. Depowering a GM box?....you will most likely want to disassemble the box to weld up the valve or swap to a much bigger T bar. Without going into great detail on this (you can google) the spring (the t bar) you wind up (when turning the wheel against a load) to open the valve that provides the desired power steering pressure will give the steering some displacement before it becomes stiff. This low rate band can be annoying to the driver, and if you turn the wheel back and forth with motor off (car on ground) you will see what I mean (if your car has a soft t bar). Repowering racks and steering boxes is a pretty well documented thing, both on youtube and as a service provided by shops. I would steer (I know, bad dad joke) away from oem manual steering boxes. They usually have very low steering ratios, you don't want the drivers asking for a trucker steering knob to make turns.... when it comes to geometry do you mean tie Rod angles? People on the s10 forum have done the heim joint steering with 5/8ths hardware, as well as eliminating the rag joint. Tightens everything up! We did that and it makes a world of difference in feel and feedback. And by soft T bar, I know what you mean I think. Wheel moves quite a bit before engaging the box when no power Edited May 4, 2021 by mgoblue06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 Just remember if you run a lot of caster the steering effort will go up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, mgoblue06 said: Looking to change up our steering system. As it stands now we have 4 heim joints in our steering system as a Bump steer elimination kit for the s10, and is 20 points. Steers great, nice and easy. if we go to a manual rack and pinion, that is 10 points, but the TRZ kit includes 2 heim joints to eliminate bump steer, so back to the 20 points. TRZ kit is for sale locally in fb marketplace. Should we just unhook the lines, depower the rack, and see how it feels on a drive? What advantages do you have with a rack and pinion other than shaving 20-30 lbs? How will steering effort be different between depowered box vs manual on a 2500-2600lb vehicle? We would like to repurpose the PS pump to move fluids for another cooler, and not take points for the cooler. The rack kit you are looking at probably just uses the Heim joints to look racy. Find a regular tie rod end that fits and use it, then control your bump steer by where you mount your rack. You must do some fabricating no matter what, make sure that you get the most out of your 10 points for the rack. There are many rack and pinions out there that have many different characteristics, find one that works for you. Since they don’t have any specified value listed for the rack conversion, I figure you could use a $5K Woodward if you wanted and then you can specify everything to fit your needs. Power VS non power steering is debated endlessly on this forum, for endurance racing I believe power steering is the way to go. With big sticky tires, massive caster, and 2-hour stints anything you can do to reduce the load on the driver is a good thing. Not sure where are going with the repurposing of the pump but I would check with tech if it is possible. Whacky repurposing is Lemons and ChumpCar 2010, if you want to run a cooler for say the transmission you will still have to pay for the actual cooler, and once you have paid for the cooler you get all the plumbing and pumps you need to make it work. 1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said: You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump. General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack! I believe I will lose more than 20-30 pounds with my rack and pinion conversion. Cast iron steering boxes are really heavy, but you also lose all the heavy linkage, drag links, idler arms, inner tie rods all add up. Also, you can ditch the heavy stock steering column which helps out. Miata power steering pumps are really light. Agree about getting the most out of your 10 points for the rack and pinion conversion, that is the key in todays ChampCar, figuring out how to get the most out of the points you spend. Edited May 4, 2021 by mhr650 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 33 minutes ago, mhr650 said: The rack kit you are looking at probably just uses the Heim joints to look racy. Find a regular tie rod end that fits and use it, then control your bump steer by where you mount your rack. You must do some fabricating no matter what, make sure that you get the most out of your 10 points for the rack. There are many rack and pinions out there that have many different characteristics, find one that works for you. Since they don’t have any specified value listed for the rack conversion, I figure you could use a $5K Woodward if you wanted and then you can specify everything to fit your needs. Power VS non power steering is debated endlessly on this forum, for endurance racing I believe power steering is the way to go. With big sticky tires, massive caster, and 2-hour stints anything you can do to reduce the load on the driver is a good thing. Not sure where are going with the repurposing of the pump but I would check with tech if it is possible. Whacky repurposing is Lemons and ChumpCar 2010, if you want to run a cooler for say the transmission you will still have to pay for the actual cooler, and once you have paid for the cooler you get all the plumbing and pumps you need to make it work. I believe I will lose more than 20-30 pounds with my rack and pinion conversion. Cast iron steering boxes are really heavy, but you also lose all the heavy linkage, drag links, idler arms, inner tie rods all add up. Also, you can ditch the heavy stock steering column which helps out. Miata power steering pumps are really light. Agree about getting the most out of your 10 points for the rack and pinion conversion, that is the key in todays ChampCar, figuring out how to get the most out of the points you spend. Our stock radiator has a hookup for a trans cooler as well already. So we won’t be paying for the cooler or pump, just re routing lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said: You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump. General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack! Tried to send you a message, are your PMs full or just don't like talking to people 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 12 hours ago, mgoblue06 said: Tried to send you a message, are your PMs full or just don't like talking to people Full and I hate tossing out perfectly good conversations... I will make room 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 If you go manual just make sure you can correct a spin, slide, or drift. Test it before racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted May 4, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 1 hour ago, mhr650 said: The rack kit you are looking at probably just uses the Heim joints to look racy. Find a regular tie rod end that fits and use it, then control your bump steer by where you mount your rack. You must do some fabricating no matter what, make sure that you get the most out of your 10 points for the rack. There are many rack and pinions out there that have many different characteristics, find one that works for you. Since they don’t have any specified value listed for the rack conversion, I figure you could use a $5K Woodward if you wanted and then you can specify everything to fit your needs. Power VS non power steering is debated endlessly on this forum, for endurance racing I believe power steering is the way to go. With big sticky tires, massive caster, and 2-hour stints anything you can do to reduce the load on the driver is a good thing. Not sure where are going with the repurposing of the pump but I would check with tech if it is possible. Whacky repurposing is Lemons and ChumpCar 2010, if you want to run a cooler for say the transmission you will still have to pay for the actual cooler, and once you have paid for the cooler you get all the plumbing and pumps you need to make it work. I believe I will lose more than 20-30 pounds with my rack and pinion conversion. Cast iron steering boxes are really heavy, but you also lose all the heavy linkage, drag links, idler arms, inner tie rods all add up. Also, you can ditch the heavy stock steering column which helps out. Miata power steering pumps are really light. Agree about getting the most out of your 10 points for the rack and pinion conversion, that is the key in todays ChampCar, figuring out how to get the most out of the points you spend. Sound and solid advice as usual from @mhr650 also love when you share some of your design works and ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 13 hours ago, mgoblue06 said: Tried to send you a message, are your PMs full or just don't like talking to people Room has been made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 2 hours ago, mgoblue06 said: when it comes to geometry do you mean tie Rod angles Bumpsteer, Ackerman, net toe change with steering. Packaging the steering gear and center link usually makes you compromise on these (to have an oil pan fit), but some cars do a very good job with placing these (German) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, mgoblue06 said: Our stock radiator has a hookup for a trans cooler as well already. So we won’t be paying for the cooler or pump, just re routing lines. Last time I remember this coming up I thought it was considered a no go. Stock automatic transmission cooler connected to stock automatic transmission was fine, automatic transmission cooler used to cool anything else was points. I could be wrong though. Edited May 4, 2021 by mhr650 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 It's just repurposed. I don't see how it could be points. Also, I tried to depower a gm steering gearbox because I was having some pump issues at the track. It was literally impossible to drive it. It was not like a depowered rack AT ALL. I tried looping the lines, venting the lines, everything. Would not budge with fairly beefy tires on a g body. No me gusta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: It's just repurposed. I don't see how it could be points. Also, I tried to depower a gm steering gearbox because I was having some pump issues at the track. It was literally impossible to drive it. It was not like a depowered rack AT ALL. I tried looping the lines, venting the lines, everything. Would not budge with fairly beefy tires on a g body. No me gusta. What make and model? We basically have a high ratio g body box. This whole conversation, like all for a new racer is just go tech it, race it, then figure out what you need. But I’m too competitive and there are parts to be had cheap locally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Black Magic said: Bumpsteer, Ackerman, net toe change with steering. Packaging the steering gear and center link usually makes you compromise on these (to have an oil pan fit), but some cars do a very good job with placing these (German) This is French to me. I’ve been trying to read about bump steer and how to fix it, but my brain won’t compute on what it is or the geometries and how they work. I’ll eventually figure it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 We used a 3rd gen GTA trans am box on a 78 Malibu. Had to use a different steering arm iirc. Did the jeep u joint steering shaft that made a YUUGGEEE difference. We did figure out the steering pump and did just fine with that car. However, my cautionary tale was just to point out that (in my experience) depowering a box acts nothing like depowering a rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said: This is French to me. I’ve been trying to read about bump steer and how to fix it, but my brain won’t compute on what it is or the geometries and how they work. I’ll eventually figure it out Ah, easy. Bumpsteer means that as the wheel moves up through its suspension travel that it will have the tire point out or in. This is not good. Ackerman is a little more difficult.... Ackerman is when the inside tire turns "harder" than the outside front tire. If viewed from above, it could look like this (as an extreme)... / -- when turned to the right. (The dashes are to indicate that the right front wheel is turned WAY to the right!) In this view, the right front is perpendicular to the chassis. Versus no ackerman... / / both follow the same arc. Edited May 4, 2021 by wvumtnbkr 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted May 4, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 ^^^pretty good simple explanations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 This has pictures and tells how to measure it. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-1001-bump-steer-explained/ I think Joe's Racing has some decent info as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said: Ah, easy. Bumpsteer means that as the wheel moves up through its suspension travel that it will have the tire point out or in. This is not good. Ackerman is a little more difficult.... Ackerman is when the inside tire turns "harder" than the outside front tire. If viewed from above, it could look like this (as an extreme)... / -- when turned to the right. (The dashes are to indicate that the right front wheel is turned WAY to the right!) In this view, the right front is perpendicular to the chassis. Versus no ackerman... / / both follow the same arc. Easy fix for bump steer: stiffer springs. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoblue06 Posted May 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 4 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said: We used a 3rd gen GTA trans am box on a 78 Malibu. Had to use a different steering arm iirc. Did the jeep u joint steering shaft that made a YUUGGEEE difference. We did figure out the steering pump and did just fine with that car. However, my cautionary tale was just to point out that (in my experience) depowering a box acts nothing like depowering a rack. Jeep steering shaft is done as well. did you depower the box or just leave as is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 5, 2021 Report Share Posted May 5, 2021 39 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said: Jeep steering shaft is done as well. did you depower the box or just leave as is? I tried to depower it. Those are strange devices.... black voodoo lives within. In other words, save the hassle, run a rack, or the stock power steering. All just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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