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Manual Steering vs Depowered steering box


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Looking to change up our steering system. 
 

As it stands now we have 4 heim joints in our steering system as a

Bump steer elimination kit for the s10, and is 20 points. Steers great, nice and easy. 
 

if we go to a manual rack and pinion, that is 10 points, but the TRZ kit includes 2 heim joints to eliminate bump steer, so back to the 20 points.  TRZ kit is for sale locally in fb marketplace. 
 

Should we just unhook the lines, depower the rack, and see how it feels on a drive? What advantages do you have with a rack and pinion other than shaving 20-30 lbs? How will steering effort be different between depowered box vs manual on a 2500-2600lb vehicle?
 

We would like to repurpose the PS pump to move fluids for another cooler, and not take points for the cooler. 

 

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1 hour ago, mgoblue06 said:

20-30 lbs?

You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump.

 

 

General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack!

Edited by Team Infiniti
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FWIW the best handling car of all the teams I have helped has a steering box (not a rack). Geometry makes the difference, which is harder to achieve but not impossible with a steering box. 

 

Depowering a GM box?....you will most likely want to disassemble the box to weld up the valve or swap to a much bigger T bar. Without going into great detail on this (you can google) the spring (the t bar) you wind up (when turning the wheel against a load) to open the valve that provides the desired power steering pressure will give the steering some displacement before it becomes stiff. This low rate band can be annoying to the driver, and if you turn the wheel back and forth with motor off (car on ground) you will see what I mean (if your car has a soft t bar). Repowering racks and steering boxes is a pretty well documented thing, both on youtube and as a service provided by shops. 

 

I would steer (I know, bad dad joke) away from oem manual steering boxes. They usually have very low steering ratios, you don't want the drivers asking for a trucker steering knob to make turns....

Edited by Black Magic
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56 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump.

 

 

General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack!

You would honestly be surprised how we have sucked up points. Shoot me a  Pm and I can tell you about it. 

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27 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

FWIW the best handling car of all the teams I have helped has a steering box (not a rack). Geometry makes the difference, which is harder to achieve but not impossible with a steering box. 

 

Depowering a GM box?....you will most likely want to disassemble the box to weld up the valve or swap to a much bigger T bar. Without going into great detail on this (you can google) the spring (the t bar) you wind up (when turning the wheel against a load) to open the valve that provides the desired power steering pressure will give the steering some displacement before it becomes stiff. This low rate band can be annoying to the driver, and if you turn the wheel back and forth with motor off (car on ground) you will see what I mean (if your car has a soft t bar). Repowering racks and steering boxes is a pretty well documented thing, both on youtube and as a service provided by shops. 

 

I would steer (I know, bad dad joke) away from oem manual steering boxes. They usually have very low steering ratios, you don't want the drivers asking for a trucker steering knob to make turns....


when it comes to geometry do you mean tie Rod angles? People on the s10 forum have done the heim joint steering with 5/8ths hardware, as well as eliminating the rag joint. Tightens everything up! We did that and it makes a world of difference in feel and feedback. 
 

And by soft T bar, I know what you mean I think. Wheel moves quite a bit before engaging the box when no power 

Edited by mgoblue06
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2 hours ago, mgoblue06 said:

Looking to change up our steering system. 
 

As it stands now we have 4 heim joints in our steering system as a

Bump steer elimination kit for the s10, and is 20 points. Steers great, nice and easy. 
 

if we go to a manual rack and pinion, that is 10 points, but the TRZ kit includes 2 heim joints to eliminate bump steer, so back to the 20 points.  TRZ kit is for sale locally in fb marketplace. 
 

Should we just unhook the lines, depower the rack, and see how it feels on a drive? What advantages do you have with a rack and pinion other than shaving 20-30 lbs? How will steering effort be different between depowered box vs manual on a 2500-2600lb vehicle?
 

We would like to repurpose the PS pump to move fluids for another cooler, and not take points for the cooler. 

 

 

The rack kit you are looking at probably just uses the Heim joints to look racy. Find a regular tie rod end that fits and use it, then control your bump steer by where you mount your rack. You must do some fabricating no matter what, make sure that you get the most out of your 10 points for the rack. There are many rack and pinions out there that have many different characteristics, find one that works for you. Since they don’t have any specified value listed for the rack conversion, I figure you could use a $5K Woodward if you wanted and then you can specify everything to fit your needs.

 

Power VS non power steering is debated endlessly on this forum, for endurance racing I believe power steering is the way to go. With big sticky tires, massive caster, and 2-hour stints anything you can do to reduce the load on the driver is a good thing.

 

Not sure where are going with the repurposing of the pump but I would check with tech if it is possible. Whacky repurposing is Lemons and ChumpCar 2010, if you want to run a cooler for say the transmission you will still have to pay for the actual cooler, and once you have paid for the cooler you get all the plumbing and pumps you need to make it work.

 

1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump.

 

 

General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack!

 

I believe I will lose more than 20-30 pounds with my rack and pinion conversion. Cast iron steering boxes are really heavy, but you also lose all the heavy linkage, drag links, idler arms, inner tie rods all add up. Also, you can ditch the heavy stock steering column which helps out. Miata power steering pumps are really light.

 

Agree about getting the most out of your 10 points for the rack and pinion conversion, that is the key in todays ChampCar, figuring out how to get the most out of the points you spend.

Edited by mhr650
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33 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

 

The rack kit you are looking at probably just uses the Heim joints to look racy. Find a regular tie rod end that fits and use it, then control your bump steer by where you mount your rack. You must do some fabricating no matter what, make sure that you get the most out of your 10 points for the rack. There are many rack and pinions out there that have many different characteristics, find one that works for you. Since they don’t have any specified value listed for the rack conversion, I figure you could use a $5K Woodward if you wanted and then you can specify everything to fit your needs.

 

Power VS non power steering is debated endlessly on this forum, for endurance racing I believe power steering is the way to go. With big sticky tires, massive caster, and 2-hour stints anything you can do to reduce the load on the driver is a good thing.

 

Not sure where are going with the repurposing of the pump but I would check with tech if it is possible. Whacky repurposing is Lemons and ChumpCar 2010, if you want to run a cooler for say the transmission you will still have to pay for the actual cooler, and once you have paid for the cooler you get all the plumbing and pumps you need to make it work.

 

 

I believe I will lose more than 20-30 pounds with my rack and pinion conversion. Cast iron steering boxes are really heavy, but you also lose all the heavy linkage, drag links, idler arms, inner tie rods all add up. Also, you can ditch the heavy stock steering column which helps out. Miata power steering pumps are really light.

 

Agree about getting the most out of your 10 points for the rack and pinion conversion, that is the key in todays ChampCar, figuring out how to get the most out of the points you spend.

 Our stock radiator has a hookup for a trans cooler as well already. So we won’t be paying for the cooler or pump, just re routing lines.

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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

You’re not losing that much weight especially seeing you’re keeping the pump.

 

 

General consensus is looping the lines works but taking everything apart , removing seals, greasing, reassembling is the better choice for no points. Saying that, there’s a ton of points available with an S 10, go with the fancy rack!

 

Tried to send you a message, are your PMs full or just don't like talking to people 😂😂😂

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1 hour ago, mhr650 said:

 

The rack kit you are looking at probably just uses the Heim joints to look racy. Find a regular tie rod end that fits and use it, then control your bump steer by where you mount your rack. You must do some fabricating no matter what, make sure that you get the most out of your 10 points for the rack. There are many rack and pinions out there that have many different characteristics, find one that works for you. Since they don’t have any specified value listed for the rack conversion, I figure you could use a $5K Woodward if you wanted and then you can specify everything to fit your needs.

 

Power VS non power steering is debated endlessly on this forum, for endurance racing I believe power steering is the way to go. With big sticky tires, massive caster, and 2-hour stints anything you can do to reduce the load on the driver is a good thing.

 

Not sure where are going with the repurposing of the pump but I would check with tech if it is possible. Whacky repurposing is Lemons and ChumpCar 2010, if you want to run a cooler for say the transmission you will still have to pay for the actual cooler, and once you have paid for the cooler you get all the plumbing and pumps you need to make it work.

 

 

I believe I will lose more than 20-30 pounds with my rack and pinion conversion. Cast iron steering boxes are really heavy, but you also lose all the heavy linkage, drag links, idler arms, inner tie rods all add up. Also, you can ditch the heavy stock steering column which helps out. Miata power steering pumps are really light.

 

Agree about getting the most out of your 10 points for the rack and pinion conversion, that is the key in todays ChampCar, figuring out how to get the most out of the points you spend.

Sound and solid advice as usual from @mhr650  

also love when you share some of your design works and ideas. 

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3 hours ago, mgoblue06 said:

 Our stock radiator has a hookup for a trans cooler as well already. So we won’t be paying for the cooler or pump, just re routing lines.

Last time I remember this coming up I thought it was considered a no go. Stock automatic transmission cooler connected to stock automatic transmission was fine, automatic transmission cooler used to cool anything else was points. I could be wrong though.

 

Edited by mhr650
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It's just repurposed.  I don't see how it could be points.

 

Also, I tried to depower a gm steering gearbox because I was having some pump issues at the track.

 

It was literally impossible to drive it.  It was not like a depowered rack AT ALL.

 

I tried looping the lines, venting the lines, everything.  Would not budge with fairly beefy tires on a g body.  No me gusta. 

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4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It's just repurposed.  I don't see how it could be points.

 

Also, I tried to depower a gm steering gearbox because I was having some pump issues at the track.

 

It was literally impossible to drive it.  It was not like a depowered rack AT ALL.

 

I tried looping the lines, venting the lines, everything.  Would not budge with fairly beefy tires on a g body.  No me gusta. 

What make and model?

 

We basically have a high ratio g body box.  
 

This whole conversation, like all for a new racer is just go tech it, race it, then figure  out what you need. But I’m too competitive and there are parts to be had cheap locally 😂😂😂

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2 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

Bumpsteer, Ackerman, net toe change with steering. 

 

Packaging the steering gear and center link usually makes you compromise on these (to have an oil pan fit), but some cars do a very good job with placing these (German)

This is French to me. I’ve been trying to read about bump steer and how to fix it, but my brain won’t compute on what it is or the geometries and how they work. I’ll eventually figure it out 

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We used a 3rd gen GTA trans am box on a 78 Malibu.  Had to use a different steering arm iirc.

 

Did the jeep u joint steering shaft that made a YUUGGEEE difference.

 

We did figure out the steering pump and did just fine with that car.  

 

However, my cautionary tale was just to point out that (in my experience) depowering a box acts nothing like depowering a rack.  

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8 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

This is French to me. I’ve been trying to read about bump steer and how to fix it, but my brain won’t compute on what it is or the geometries and how they work. I’ll eventually figure it out 

Ah, easy.  

 

Bumpsteer means that as the wheel moves up through its suspension travel that it will have the tire point out or in.  This is not good.

 

Ackerman is a little more difficult....  Ackerman is when the inside tire turns "harder" than the outside front tire.  If viewed from above, it could look like this (as an extreme)...

 

/  --  when turned to the right. (The dashes are to indicate that the right front wheel is turned WAY to the right!)  In this view, the right front is perpendicular to the chassis.

 

Versus no ackerman...

 

/  /   both follow the same arc.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Ah, easy.  

 

Bumpsteer means that as the wheel moves up through its suspension travel that it will have the tire point out or in.  This is not good.

 

Ackerman is a little more difficult....  Ackerman is when the inside tire turns "harder" than the outside front tire.  If viewed from above, it could look like this (as an extreme)...

 

/  --  when turned to the right. (The dashes are to indicate that the right front wheel is turned WAY to the right!)  In this view, the right front is perpendicular to the chassis.

 

Versus no ackerman...

 

/  /   both follow the same arc.

Easy fix for bump steer:

stiffer springs. 

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4 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

We used a 3rd gen GTA trans am box on a 78 Malibu.  Had to use a different steering arm iirc.

 

Did the jeep u joint steering shaft that made a YUUGGEEE difference.

 

We did figure out the steering pump and did just fine with that car.  

 

However, my cautionary tale was just to point out that (in my experience) depowering a box acts nothing like depowering a rack.  

Jeep steering shaft is done as well. 
 

did you depower the box or just leave as is?

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39 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

Jeep steering shaft is done as well. 
 

did you depower the box or just leave as is?

I tried to depower it.  Those are strange devices....  black voodoo lives within.

 

In other words, save the hassle, run a rack, or the stock power steering.

 

All just my opinion.

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