New rookie build DOA

[mgoblue06]

Where to start.

 

So back in August a close friend an I wanted to get into wheel to wheel racing because neither of us had done it, but wanted to try after seeing a random Facebook post about the other Citrus league.

 

After a few beers we settled on an s-10 because why not race a truck.  Can make it light, 4.3 v6, decent tranny, and a big fuel tank. I don’t know how we ever came to the next part other than a brain bubble, but we found a rear subframe out of a RX-7 FD locally for 250 bucks, with three sets of gears. LSD and IRS.

 

At first we were just going to race Lemons, but decided we wanted to spend more than 500 bucks and get this thing somewhat dialed in. Here is what we had figured for points.

 

1999 s10

 

Truck	200
Rear end swap	50
Upper A Arms	20
Lower A Arms	20
Heim joints	10
Aero	20	splitter, wing
Accusump	10
Oil Coolers	40
Ball Joints	20	Camber Appartus - front axle
Materials - rear end	37
Materials - Bed cover	15
Sway Bar	20
Coil Overs	20	Rear
Rear Strut Brace	10	rear ride height adjusting
Total	492

As you can see we had in there 37 points for materials to graft the rear end to the existing frame of the s-10, as well as 50 points to complete the swap.

 

The 50 points came from a link to a tech desk article that Huggy had posted back in the first question I had every asked on this forum, was ruled as 50 points in the article for the swap.

 

Build is about done, was down to just the frame at one point. Cage was going on, then finishing wiring, belts, fire suppresion.

 

Needed brake fluid so I reached out locally to the guys at Money Shift to support them. Showed them pictures of the build, and they suggested I reach out to tech to make things are ok with what we did.

 

What we did is below In pictures

 

 

Tech came back and said that no 50 point rule exists anymore and we will now be charged 140 points for the rear subframe swap as 10 points per suspension piece. Tech article deleted off the website stating that. And that our chassis was tube frame and therefore not allowed in the series.

 

After speaking with Ray (great person) a couple times yesterday, he spoke to Dana, and said we could modify where the gas tank was, reintroduce a crush zone of the factory channel frame rails between bash bar and square above the subframe, and we might be allowed to run in EC, but probably not in actual classes (let alone the plus 90 hit extra in unplanned VPI) because we went "too far" with our build.

 

We were already registered for mid Ohio in September.

 

Why am I saying this and bringing it to attention?

 

As a new team that put 100s of hours getting to this point, let alone the money, it’s disappointing for this to happen.

 

The rule book and tech desk tickets were followed for the build. The truck was never meant to be a tube frame chassis, let alone the rule book say EXACTLY what is defined as a tube frame chassis. Everyone has different opinions on what a tube frame chassis is, and that’s a problem.

 

Here is the only spot in the entire BCCR pdf that has the phrase “tube-frame chassis”

 

3.2.16. In order to prevent massively expensive rollcages that start to look and act like a tube-frame chassis, ChampCar has defined the “maximum, value-free” roll-cage. The “maximum, value-free” roll-cage includes all pads, points, tubes and triangulations necessary to maintain an extremely high degree of safety, while keeping costs in-check and competition well-balanced. Teams MAY exceed the design and application of the “maximum, value-free” roll-cage; however, additional value will be assessed by the Tech Inspector, based on the perceived performance enhancement of the rollcage

 

How were we supposed to know a tech ticket was deleted and that subframe swap not allowed for 50 points?

 

I will take partial blame for this for not reaching out to tech to consult. Buy why should I have had to if I followed what was in the rule book, as well as using tech articles to build?

 

There needs to be a better system for deleted tech articles. Taking out GBUs performance in the fall on a 50 point rear end swap, and not the 150 point initial VPI, was also wrong IMO

 

But what are we but just rookies. I’m sure I will get hate and people laughing at us to follow this, but just wanted to say my piece of what happened and air out some things that could be changed in the future to help other new teams. Maybe we will give it a go in a year to two again with a new build.

[mgoblue06]

Pics of how the trick rear end sits today after the fuel cell and bash bar 

[MichaelPal]

Call yourself a rookie? But build a S10 to within an inch of it's life!? That thing is awesome and looks like some solid craftsmanship!

 

Tech articles vs rule book is a giant can-of-worms discussion that you are about to open.

 

I agree with the confusion and difficulty from someone coming into this series. 

 

But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you all seem like a fine group of builders who would do well here. I think the mistake was building the maximum right out of the gate without consulting tech (as you said).

 

I hope to see y'all out to some races eventually, where are you located?

[TiredBirds]

1 hour ago, mgoblue06 said:

Where to start.

 

So back in August a close friend an I wanted to get into wheel to wheel racing because neither of us had done it, but wanted to try after seeing a random Facebook post about the other Citrus league.

 

After a few beers we settled on an s-10 because why not race a truck.  Can make it light, 4.3 v6, decent tranny, and a big fuel tank. I don’t know how we ever came to the next part other than a brain bubble, but we found a rear subframe out of a RX-7 FD locally for 250 bucks, with three sets of gears. LSD and IRS.

 

At first we were just going to race Lemons, but decided we wanted to spend more than 500 bucks and get this thing somewhat dialed in. Here is what we had figured for points.

 

1999 s10

 

Truck	200
Rear end swap	50
Upper A Arms	20
Lower A Arms	20
Heim joints	10
Aero	20	splitter, wing
Accusump	10
Oil Coolers	40
Ball Joints	20	Camber Appartus - front axle
Materials - rear end	37
Materials - Bed cover	15
Sway Bar	20
Coil Overs	20	Rear
Rear Strut Brace	10	rear ride height adjusting
Total	492

As you can see we had in there 37 points for materials to graft the rear end to the existing frame of the s-10, as well as 50 points to complete the swap.

 

The 50 points came from a link to a tech desk article that Huggy had posted back in the first question I had every asked on this forum, was ruled as 50 points in the article for the swap.

 

Build is about done, was down to just the frame at one point. Cage was going on, then finishing wiring, belts, fire suppresion.

 

Needed brake fluid so I reached out locally to the guys at Money Shift to support them. Showed them pictures of the build, and they suggested I reach out to tech to make things are ok with what we did.

 

What we did is below In pictures

 

 

Tech came back and said that no 50 point rule exists anymore and we will now be charged 140 points for the rear subframe swap as 10 points per suspension piece. Tech article deleted off the website stating that. And that our chassis was tube frame and therefore not allowed in the series.

 

After speaking with Ray (great person) a couple times yesterday, he spoke to Dana, and said we could modify where the gas tank was, reintroduce a crush zone of the factory channel frame rails between bash bar and square above the subframe, and we might be allowed to run in EC, but probably not in actual classes (let alone the plus 90 hit extra in unplanned VPI) because we went "too far" with our build.

 

We were already registered for mid Ohio in September.

 

Why am I saying this and bringing it to attention?

 

As a new team that put 100s of hours getting to this point, let alone the money, it’s disappointing for this to happen.

 

The rule book and tech desk tickets were followed for the build. The truck was never meant to be a tube frame chassis, let alone the rule book say EXACTLY what is defined as a tube frame chassis. Everyone has different opinions on what a tube frame chassis is, and that’s a problem.

 

Here is the only spot in the entire BCCR pdf that has the phrase “tube-frame chassis”

 

3.2.16. In order to prevent massively expensive rollcages that start to look and act like a tube-frame chassis, ChampCar has defined the “maximum, value-free” roll-cage. The “maximum, value-free” roll-cage includes all pads, points, tubes and triangulations necessary to maintain an extremely high degree of safety, while keeping costs in-check and competition well-balanced. Teams MAY exceed the design and application of the “maximum, value-free” roll-cage; however, additional value will be assessed by the Tech Inspector, based on the perceived performance enhancement of the rollcage

 

How were we supposed to know a tech ticket was deleted and that subframe swap not allowed for 50 points?

 

I will take partial blame for this for not reaching out to tech to consult. Buy why should I have had to if I followed what was in the rule book, as well as using tech articles to build?

 

There needs to be a better system for deleted tech articles. Taking out GBUs performance in the fall on a 50 point rear end swap, and not the 150 point initial VPI, was also wrong IMO

 

But what are we but just rookies. I’m sure I will get hate and people laughing at us to follow this, but just wanted to say my piece of what happened and air out some things that could be changed in the future to help other new teams. Maybe we will give it a go in a year to two again with a new build.

god work, but if you show up at Lemons with that, nobody is going to give you a hard time...even if they did you can race EC and still have fun. The V6 might not be enough for you to compete in Chump's....the cars are significantly faster than Lemons. 

[mgoblue06]

19 minutes ago, MichaelPal said:

Call yourself a rookie? But build a S10 to within an inch of it's life!? That thing is awesome and looks like some solid craftsmanship!

 

Tech articles vs rule book is a giant can-of-worms discussion that you are about to open.

 

I agree with the confusion and difficulty from someone coming into this series. 

 

But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you all seem like a fine group of builders who would do well here. I think the mistake was building the maximum right out of the gate without consulting tech (as you said).

 

I hope to see y'all out to some races eventually, where are you located?

Thanks. It was going to be pretty sweet when done. I think building it to within an inch of its life drove us so hard. As we got into this maybe I watch a little bit too much of B is for Build on youtube, and other builders for inspiration. 

I knew a can of worms would be opened, but they are legitimate concerns. Tech article redline each year would be an easy start that would have stopped us early in the build and this wouldn’t have happened. 
 

 

We are located in Northern, Ohio. Outside Sandusky. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by mgoblue06

[mgoblue06]

8 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

god work, but if you show up at Lemons with that, nobody is going to give you a hard time...even if they did you can race EC and still have fun. The V6 might not be enough for you to compete in Chump's....the cars are significantly faster than Lemons. 

I was clearing enough points in the build for a cam, but that ain’t happening anymore, haha 

[wvumtnbkr]

So, I don't see tube frame here.  I see subframe mounts.  

 

In other words, that's not at all what I would consider tube frame.

 

Can you cut the two forward bars and gusset the subframe mount to the chassis?

 

I can now see why you are upset....

[hotchkis23]

4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

So, I don't see tube frame here.  I see subframe mounts.  

 

In other words, that's not at all what I would consider tube frame.

 

Can you cut the two forward bars and gusset the subframe mount to the chassis?

 

I can now see why you are upset....

Can you make it a "bolt on subframe" then argue it should have a 10 pt value like a "bolt on tubular front subframe/k member"?  "bolt on" is not defined as something bought off the shelf in the rule book that I am aware of.

[petawawarace]

Nice work!!

 

The mentality with the leadership of this series seems to be that they do not care if new members join or not.  The fact that the rules (and constant changing of the rules) make it incredibly difficult for a new team to enter the series doesn’t matter.  Unless your building a Miata or E30 or course.  
They believe that because there’s a large group of old racers, everything is fine.  
 

I’ve also had 3 rules changed that negatively affected my build in the last year.  Thankfully not as large of an issue as yours, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. 

[mgoblue06]

25 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

Can you make it a "bolt on subframe" then argue it should have a 10 pt value like a "bolt on tubular front subframe/k member"?  "bolt on" is not defined as something bought off the shelf in the rule book that I am aware of.

This thought did cross my mind. But it says front subframe not rear in the rules. 

[mgoblue06]

8 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Nice work!!

 

The mentality with the leadership of this series seems to be that they do not care if new members join or not.  The fact that the rules (and constant changing of the rules) make it incredibly difficult for a new team to enter the series doesn’t matter.  Unless your building a Miata or E30 or course.  
They believe that because there’s a large group of old racers, everything is fine.  
 

I’ve also had 3 rules changed that negatively affected my build in the last year.  Thankfully not as large of an issue as yours, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. 

As I was writing this up last night I had the exact same thought. We should have just gotten a Miata, or E30 and just stepped in line, not ruffled feathers of try to do something different. 
 

Hopefully you don’t have any more issues. 
 

Taking a 90 point bump in points from 50 to 140 for a rear subframe, when figuring a new build is like a dagger in the heart, then pulling it out and letting you bleed out in the street is what happened with the tube frame designation

[Black Magic]

That is a really neat build.

 

This is obviously a lot more work, but I wonder if management and tech would have taken a softer approach if you used more of the stock rear frame rails in your mounting? Basically cut the frame where you did, angle the rear of the frame up and create much of the backbone of your subframe mount from the OE frame horns. 

 

Does it basically build what you currently have with different material....yeah. Is it alot more work just to end up with the same structure.....yeah. However emotionally it would look more like a modified structure vs a "tube frame" and might buy you some wiggle room. 

 

I think you will want to laterally support your strut mounts (a strut bar with some other tie in to the frame\mount), the spring loads may "splay" your U shaped tubular strut mounts or fatigue them over time. Otherwise some pretty well laid out work. 

[mgoblue06]

37 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

So, I don't see tube frame here.  I see subframe mounts.  

 

In other words, that's not at all what I would consider tube frame.

 

Can you cut the two forward bars and gusset the subframe mount to the chassis?

 

I can now see why you are upset....

I offered to mod the front by removing the inner two bars of the four, just because the rear mainstays from the cage would hit the square subframe mounting point to create some structural stiffness. Tech wasn’t too concerned about in front of the rear axel, more behind, because the factory crush zone of frame rails didn’t exist and could be dangerous if rear ended or in a crash with a Honda or Miata. 

[hotchkis23]

7 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:

This thought did cross my mind. But it says front subframe not rear in the rules. 

Agreed, but if fronts are allowed for 10 pts.  One would think you could argue and possibly get a similar valuation.

[mgoblue06]

4 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

That is a really neat build.

 

This is obviously a lot more work, but I wonder if management and tech would have taken a softer approach if you used more of the stock rear frame rails in your mounting? Basically cut the frame where you did, angle the rear of the frame up and create much of the backbone of your subframe mount from the OE frame horns. 

 

Does it basically build what you currently have with different material....yeah. Is it alot more work just to end up with the same structure.....yeah. However emotionally it would look more like a modified structure vs a "tube frame" and might buy you some wiggle room. 

 

I think you will want to laterally support your strut mounts (a strut bar with some other tie in to the frame\mount), the spring loads may "splay" your U shaped tubular strut mounts or fatigue them over time. Otherwise some pretty well laid out work. 

The plan was to use a strut bar between those loops for 10 points. Just wasn’t installed yet, was going to put that in when we installed the cage. 
 

When designing it we thought about cutting, heating, bending frame rails to get to that point, but honestly didn’t think much about it because could have been unsafe, and not look professionally built, like the rules state   should be done.

[mgoblue06]

5 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

Agreed, but if fronts are allowed for 10 pts.  One would think you could argue and possibly get a similar valuation.

 

I can always try, that would save us some points, and maybe help stomach the 50 to 140 point rear subframe issue. 

[Chris Huggins]

18 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

The mentality with the leadership of this series seems to be that they do not care if new members join or not.  The fact that the rules (and constant changing of the rules) make it incredibly difficult for a new team to enter the series doesn’t matter.  Unless your building a Miata or E30 or course.  
They believe that because there’s a large group of old racers, everything is fine.  
 

I’ve also had 3 rules changed that negatively affected my build in the last year.  Thankfully not as large of an issue as yours, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. 

bull cookies.  Sorry, this is just internet pot stirring and has nothing to do with the rule change this member is upset about.

 

When that came out, the internet pot stirrers were UP IN ARMS over the 50 point rear subframe swap (me included, fwiw).  

Now, 2 years later,  you want to vilify the club for getting rid of that mistake which should have never happened?

 

 

There are lots of us who work diligently to make it easier for new members to come race with us, and for experienced racers to come over from other series.  Sometimes this may not look like what you want it to look like, but that doesn't mean its not happening.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, mgoblue06 said:

Truck	200
Rear end swap	140
Upper A Arms	20
Lower A Arms	20
Heim joints	10
Aero
Accusump	10
Oil Coolers
Ball Joints	20	Camber Appartus - front axle
Materials - rear end	37
Materials - Bed cover
Sway Bar	20
Coil Overs	20	Rear
Rear Strut Brace
Total	497

 

 

It sucks that you are in this spot, and for that I'm personally sorry, particularly if you hold me accountable for answering your question before.

 

Unfortunately, because of the rule set we are working with (and which is a core-value of champcar), rule changes are a constant requirement.  Don't read that the wrong way, rules stability is important and I am personally a loud voice for not changing rules- by default, the status quo should remain, unless there is an overwhelming force to change it.  When the rules are written for so many different makes and models, and are so open (IE, you can do whatever you want unless specifically outlined that you cant, which is opposite most other rule sets), its a constant challenge to keep up with the pace of development and people finding new loopholes. 

 

In this case, the allowance of 50point rear suspension swap was a mistake made by a previous employee, which absolutely needed to be corrected.  A team was allowed to swap the entire rear subframe, suspension, diff, etc on a car for 50 points, even though the rules in place at the time clearly indicated otherwise, and other teams were paying points >50 depending on the install at the same time.   This was made as a tech ruling at a race event, and became "active" on the tech desk until the BOD was able to review and act otherwise.  The annual rules cycle fixed this - IE, the tech desk article remained in place for 2020, and when the 2021 rules were made effective the article was removed.  

 

In summary, the 50 point suspension swap was a mistake, and leaving it as a rule-of-law would have been another (bigger) mistake.  Unfortunately you got caught up in this.  I hope you reconsider calling your build DOA and make some changes to your chosen equipment to account for the points.  Repurpose some materials to make that rear strut brace and get 10 points back.  Dont run a bed cover.  Run with no splitter/wing.  Ditch the coolers.  

[mender]

Hire Bill Strong as your rules lawyer/representative...

[mgoblue06]

2 minutes ago, mender said:

Hire Bill Strong as your rules lawyer/representative...

paging @Bill Strong your services are required

[mgoblue06]

29 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

bull cookies.  Sorry, this is just internet pot stirring and has nothing to do with the rule change this member is upset about.

 

When that came out, the internet pot stirrers were UP IN ARMS over the 50 point rear subframe swap (me included, fwiw).  

Now, 2 years later,  you want to vilify the club for getting rid of that mistake which should have never happened?

 

 

There are lots of us who work diligently to make it easier for new members to come race with us, and for experienced racers to come over from other series.  Sometimes this may not look like what you want it to look like, but that doesn't mean its not happening.

 

 

 

 

It sucks that you are in this spot, and for that I'm personally sorry, particularly if you hold me accountable for answering your question before.

 

Unfortunately, because of the rule set we are working with (and which is a core-value of champcar), rule changes are a constant requirement.  Don't read that the wrong way, rules stability is important and I am personally a loud voice for not changing rules- by default, the status quo should remain, unless there is an overwhelming force to change it.  When the rules are written for so many different makes and models, and are so open (IE, you can do whatever you want unless specifically outlined that you cant, which is opposite most other rule sets), its a constant challenge to keep up with the pace of development and people finding new loopholes. 

 

In this case, the allowance of 50point rear suspension swap was a mistake made by a previous employee, which absolutely needed to be corrected.  A team was allowed to swap the entire rear subframe, suspension, diff, etc on a car for 50 points, even though the rules in place at the time clearly indicated otherwise, and other teams were paying points >50 depending on the install at the same time.   This was made as a tech ruling at a race event, and became "active" on the tech desk until the BOD was able to review and act otherwise.  The annual rules cycle fixed this - IE, the tech desk article remained in place for 2020, and when the 2021 rules were made effective the article was removed.  

 

In summary, the 50 point suspension swap was a mistake, and leaving it as a rule-of-law would have been another (bigger) mistake.  Unfortunately you got caught up in this.  I hope you reconsider calling your build DOA and make some changes to your chosen equipment to account for the points.  Repurpose some materials to make that rear strut brace and get 10 points back.  Dont run a bed cover.  Run with no splitter/wing.  Ditch the coolers.  

I do not personally hold you accountable at all. My request would be in the future if tech articles are deleted a red line edition pdf of articles that are no longer valid be distributed somehow with the new BCCR. We would have caught it early in the build, and could have pivoted earlier. 
 

Maybe a happy medium can be found? 75 points? 

 

Charge 25 for Diff swap?

Charge 50 for suspension swap? 

That sounds fair. 

Adding up each part, including taking 20 points for toe links on each side is laughable. 
 

Here is how the 140 brakes down 

 

Diff swap - 25 points, includes axels and CVs
hub swap - 2.5 per side, non OE
upper control arms - 20 points
lower control arms - 20 points
trailing arms - 20 points
Toe links - 20 

subframe -10

spindles - 20

 

So we run the 140 points in VPI, get rid of all the reliability points to help the chances of finishing as race, what are we really left with? I’m beating a dead horse saying this, but it just pushes people to run what everybody else runs for any chance of doing well. Chances are we would finish in the bottom third, but I honestly don’t feel the greatest putting the people paying to race on the team out there with a chance of the vehicle not finishing. 
 

What other teams were running paying more than 50 points for rear swaps? 
 

How would suggest addressing the issue of the tube frame? 

Edited May 11, 2021 by mgoblue06

[Bill Strong]

I love your build and feel really bad for what you had to go through. That is such a cool build.  ChampCar has always been a builder series, but has gone away from that within the past year or so. Cookie cutter cost reductions are reaching into the grassroots stuff.    

 

You are not the only one that is going to fall victim to the latest IRS points change.  There are going to be some really pissed off teams if they don't read the Latest BCCR and show up to Tech with a build that has passed tech the past few years. 

 

I am about to spend the next 20 hours driving with our head of tech and I will talk to him to get a better idea of what we are dealing with here.  

 

I would use Black Magics ideas as he is a top NASCAR engineer.  

 

[TiredBirds]

2 hours ago, mgoblue06 said:

I was clearing enough points in the build for a cam, but that ain’t happening anymore, haha 

Honestly if it were me, I'd toss in a Vortex V8 and take it to the track. If they make you run EC so what? We race to have fun, not win. I 100% guarantee if you showed up at Lemons with some dumb theme and a bribe you'd get zero points. They don't have the same "points" system. if you spend $20 in steel then that is what you are charged. If you grab a $200 Vortex, that is what you are charged.  The VPI and "points" structure here is hard to figure out sometimes. Maybe you could drill some holes run some blots thru the frame and say it was bolt in but I welded it for strength. We welded our K-frame to the chassis. 

[Bill Strong]

5 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

Honestly if it were me, I'd toss in a Vortex V8 and take it to the track. If they make you run EC so what? We race to have fun, not win.

 

 

I agree.  Just have fun with it.  The fun has kinda gone away over the past few years.  That's why I am building tbe slowest car in ChampCar just to throw a wrench into those e30s and Altimas radiators. It easy to throw going slow.

[Black Magic]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/06/rb25poweredgm/

 

Was thinking if it looked like that you would have a much easier time with tech. 

[Team Infiniti]

49 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

if you showed up at Lemons......

.....with a car that has been altered @ the factory crash structures it will not fly... at all.