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2 hours ago, Bandit said:

Possibly. However recently a Miata owner made a comment about swapping in a later sub.

 

Yeah, not tubular though.  I believe (with regards to the miata) it is stock geometry, they later subframe just facilitates engine swapping iirc.  It is the stock piece from a later model.

 

In other words, the tubular subframe (afaik) was aimed at helping American iron specifically.

 

It's not ALL a conspiracy to hold back AI.  Lolz.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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34 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Yeah, not tubular though.  I believe (with regards to the miata) it is stock geometry, they later subframe just facilitates engine swapping iirc.  It is the stock piece from a later model.

 

In other words, the tubular subframe (afaik) was aimed at helping American iron specifically.

 

It's not ALL a conspiracy to hold back AI.  Lolz.

So what is the point charge for that since it is not "tubular"? Or is that part of a platform swap?

 

Never said it was a conspiracy to hold back AI. Said AI wasn't likely considered. I'd say 10 points for a subframe that allows bolt in C6 components and geometry was an oversight versus a huge concession.

 

I wouldn't do it, but a high roller team obviously could.

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31 minutes ago, Bandit said:

So what is the point charge for that since it is not "tubular"? Or is that part of a platform swap?

 

Never said it was a conspiracy to hold back AI. Said AI wasn't likely considered. I'd say 10 points for a subframe that allows bolt in C6 components and geometry was an oversight versus a huge concession.

 

I wouldn't do it, but a high roller team obviously could.

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Still have to pay for all the components... 

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30 minutes ago, Bandit said:

So what is the point charge for that since it is not "tubular"? Or is that part of a platform swap?

 

Never said it was a conspiracy to hold back AI. Said AI wasn't likely considered. I'd say 10 points for a subframe that allows bolt in C6 components and geometry was an oversight versus a huge concession.

 

I wouldn't do it, but a high roller team obviously could.

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Look, I'll be blunt.

 

You always talk about how champcar doesn't want American iron racing.

 

I merely pointed out that this was specifically to help mustangs at one point.   This, and artificially lowering vpis of American iron.

 

T hats why I said it's not all a conspiracy against AI.

 

Just so everybody is clear, it would be 10 pts for any of those subframe, and then 10 pts per each suspension component.  Don't think you get all the stuff in that pic for 10 pts.

 

Also, as per the suspension geometry benefits of a subframe....  well, you are totally allowed to cut your stock mounting points and reweld them somewhere else for zero pts.

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15 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

10m points ? LOFL

The center piece is the subframe.

 

C5/C6 do not have the upper control arm mounts as part of the subframe so they take a bit more finagling. As seen in that pic they are part of the adapters. That is the rear sub to be clear. The stock front sub is pretty similar.

 

C4 front sub has all the mounts. Fairy easy to bolt in something else. You still need to figure out an easy way to add camber and caster to those however.

Edited by Bandit
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2 minutes ago, Bandit said:

The center piece is the subframe.

 

C5/C6 do not have the upper control arm mounts as part of the subframe so they take a bit more finagling. As seen in that pic they are part of the adapters.

 

C4 front sub has all the mounts. Fairy easy to bolt in something else. You still need to figure out an easy way to add camber and caster to those however.

we have C6 front brakes...0 points. That set-up is nice, but way too $$$$$$ 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

10m points ? LOFL

42.5 per side plus 20 for subframe and mounts. 
 

115 total, without diff swap. With different swap would be 130

 

because we have a trailing arm suspension for the lower components we get hit 20

points extra because our setup

has two components instead of  wishbone single component lower 

Edited by mgoblue06
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1 hour ago, mgoblue06 said:

42.5 per side plus 20 for subframe and mounts. 
 

115 total, without diff swap. With different swap would be 130

 

because we have a trailing arm suspension for the lower components we get hit 20

points extra because our setup

has two components instead of  wishbone single component lower 

And that is why charging points per part for IRS is nonsensical. Various designs use different numbers of parts to end up doing the same thing.

 

Still trying to figure how a C4 IRS is 165 points....

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4 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Look, I'll be blunt.

 

You always talk about how champcar doesn't want American iron racing.

 

I merely pointed out that this was specifically to help mustangs at one point.   This, and artificially lowering vpis of American iron.

 

No, when the tubular was added to the BCCR it was not specifically to help Mustangs.  For years prior to being added to the BCCR Mustangs were racing with them, the only difference was that the value was bouncing anywhere from 10, 15, 20 points depending on the year and not in a sequential manner because it was not in the rules.

 

As to the weight question, on Mustangs there is no weight savings as with all the strengthening needed for road racing it is pretty similar to stamped stock weight.  The weight savings are in the tubular control arms but that is another 20 points.  There are lighter K's but they would be folded after a couple of laps, they are for drag racing or street use only.

 

There are only two K's that should be trusted for road racing, Griggs and Maximum.  Both require coilovers so the swap is 30 points for the Mustang, no weight savings, and you are into it for a couple thou$ CDN with their setup.  A couple of years later, the Mustang being so successful by winning a couple of races (without the tubular K), it was raised by 25 points.  So if gaining 55 points is a "help", then yes I guess it was directed at the Mustang.

 

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7 hours ago, Bandit said:

And that is why charging points per part for IRS is nonsensical. Various designs use different numbers of parts to end up doing the same thing.

 

Still trying to figure how a C4 IRS is 165 points....

Yep.  Choose wisely!

 

I mean even a mustang or g body rear end can be made to work very well with significantly less points, so I don't really see why anybody would actually do this with the point structure. 

 

Does that mean an IRS swap should be less points?  I'm not sure.

 

However, at least we have a consistent interpretation now.  (Though the value will change based on component number)

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Yep.  Choose wisely!

 

I mean even a mustang or g body rear end can be made to work very well with significantly less points, so I don't really see why anybody would actually do this with the point structure. 

 

Does that mean an IRS swap should be less points?  I'm not sure.

 

However, at least we have a consistent interpretation now.  (Though the value will change based on component number)


I think it should be valued as such, easy and simple 

 

Upper suspension arm/assembly - 10 per side 

Lower suspension arms/assembly- 10 per side 

Spindle - 10 per side 

Frame - 10 points 


70 points for suspension components

 

Want to change the diff? Another 25

Hubs? Another 5 - that stuff us already included in the BCCR. 

 

Total swap - 100 points

More than the old tech desk at 50, but less than 140-160

 

 

 

 

Edited by mgoblue06
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My question would be...

 

Why change the bccr?  It already has a way to value the irs swap.  Per piece.

 

Is it just because you want less points?

 

Is it because the points value doesn't equal the benefit?

 

Is it because you got screwed on the initial ruling?

 

I'm not judging your answer, I'm just asking to see if it makes us all think about it clearly.  

 

In other words, why make irs cheaper than the way it's laid out in the bccr?

 

How would lowering those values impact other cars?

 

If I didn't swap an entire irs, can I change all 3 of my lower links (on each side) for the same 10 pts?

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29 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:


I think it should be valued as such, easy and simple 

 

Upper suspension arm/assembly - 10 per side 

Lower suspension arms/assembly- 10 per side 

Spindle - 10 per side 

Frame - 10 points 


70 points for suspension components

 

Want to change the diff? Another 25

Hubs? Another 5 - that stuff us already included in the BCCR. 

 

Total swap - 100 points

More than the old tech desk at 50, but less than 140-160

 

 

Sounds about exactly like you were told by the tech desk?

 

You forgot the Toe Links (10/side), Trailing arms (10/side), and sway bar (20)

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3 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

Sounds about exactly like you were told by the tech desk?

 

You forgot the Toe Links (10/side), Trailing arms (10/side), and sway bar (20)


I was trying to include the trailing arms and toe links in the lower assembly in my hypothetical points structure. Lower assembly, and upper assembly. I’m not a pro, just beating this dead horse till it rotten.
 

 

3 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

My question would be...

 

Why change the bccr?  It already has a way to value the irs swap.  Per piece.

 

Is it just because you want less points?

 

Is it because the points value doesn't equal the benefit?

 

Is it because you got screwed on the initial ruling?

 

I'm not judging your answer, I'm just asking to see if it makes us all think about it clearly.  

 

In other words, why make irs cheaper than the way it's laid out in the bccr?

 

How would lowering those values impact other cars?

 

If I didn't swap an entire irs, can I change all 3 of my lower links (on each side) for the same 10 pts?


All of the above. 
 

50 points is undervalued, 140 or per suspension piece is overvalued. 

 

Had I known it was 140, plus materials for the subframe (37) for a total of 177 I don’t think we would have done it. That cart has left the barn.  
 

I’m sure someone will say well that’s what the BCCR states, but that’s not the tech desk article we followed said. How were we supposed to know the article was deleted. As @Bill Strongsaid, I’m not the first one that is going to show up with an IRS swap to a track and get killed on points.  
 

This conversation is just going in circles now. Lol.

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Bottom line.
Build to the rule book. 
If needed, Adjust once you go through tech.

Use the TechDesk to get simple questions answered.
The BOD and TAC are for the most part competitors in this series. If you post up those "unfair advantage" questions those peeps will try and shut those down fast. At least get a few races out of it until they catch on.
lol.

The ChampCar Endurance Series has one rule book, and Tech and the Event Directors use that book to make decisions.

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Run what you built for a few races with the safety suggestions performed. Then build another one with what you learned to be able to run in class. Keep the first to run Lemons if you want. Plenty of competitors have done that as they didn’t want to push the easy buttons.

ChampCar will be glad to have you and we as competitors as well. It’s super cool to race against trucks.

 

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33 minutes ago, mgoblue06 said:


I was trying to include the trailing arms and toe links in the lower assembly in my hypothetical points structure. Lower assembly, and upper assembly. I’m not a pro, just beating this dead horse till it rotten.
 

 


All of the above. 
 

50 points is undervalued, 140 or per suspension piece is overvalued. 

 

Had I known it was 140, plus materials for the subframe (37) for a total of 177 I don’t think we would have done it. That cart has left the barn.  
 

I’m sure someone will say well that’s what the BCCR states, but that’s not the tech desk article we followed said. How were we supposed to know the article was deleted. As @Bill Strongsaid, I’m not the first one that is going to show up with an IRS swap to a track and get killed on points.  
 

This conversation is just going in circles now. Lol.

I disagree.  I wasn't trying to quash your thoughts.  I was trying to extrapolate it.

 

I don't hate the idea of a set value for swapping in an IRS from say a vehicle on the vpi list.  

 

I do think it needs some thought before being presented.

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1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

Bottom line.
Build to the rule book. 
If needed, Adjust once you go through tech.

Use the TechDesk to get simple questions answered.
The BOD and TAC are for the most part competitors in this series. If you post up those "unfair advantage" questions those peeps will try and shut those down fast. At least get a few races out of it until they catch on.
lol.

The ChampCar Endurance Series has one rule book, and Tech and the Event Directors use that book to make decisions.

Perhaps have a popup when someone reviews the help desk reminding them the BCCR comes first and last at the end of the day.

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1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

The ChampCar Endurance Series has one rule book, and Tech and the Event Directors use that book to make decisions.

Yeah, well, except for a pretty substantial period of time there was a "second rule book". You know it. I know it. And lots of other people knew it. However, not everybody knew it. Hopefully that's done now. 

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1 hour ago, jakks said:

Run what you built for a few races with the safety suggestions performed. Then build another one with what you learned to be able to run in class. Keep the first to run Lemons if you want. Plenty of competitors have done that as they didn’t want to push the easy buttons.

ChampCar will be glad to have you and we as competitors as well. It’s super cool to race against trucks.

 

Because building, then racing TWO racecars is simple, easy and cheap. 🤣

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I wonder why we allow a car to make such a wholesale change at all?  I.E. a factory car that had a solid rear axle being swapped to independent rear suspension?  Some of these cars are going to really start having trouble identifying as something made in Detroit versus a race shop if we don't draw a line....  

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