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2021 Board of Directors Annual Meeting - Virtual


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57 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

As I've said before, and I'm sure I'll say it again....

 

When I started in chumpcar, we had an almost entirely stock 2nd gen rx7.  It was valued at 520 pts with the way the aiv rules were.  We finished 3rd in our first race.

 

Now, I have an airdam, splitter, rear wing, some suspension parts, coilovers,  an engine swap, a trans swap, and some other stuff that I can't remember.  I'm now below 500 pts.

 

The free stuff adds up over time.

 

Brakes, radiators, swap stuff, shifters, springs, lower point values for items, etc.  It all adds up over time.

 

Does that 10 to 15 seconds quicker a lap make the race more exciting?  Or does it just make the racing more expensive?

 

I understand that less maintenance costs means more entries.

 

Make the performance items cost more points and give the reliability stuff away for free.

 

We are giving the reliability stuff away for free, but not raising any performance values.

 

Champcar has already established that they / we will not reign in items that are too low in value.  Therefore more free stuff,  even if it is reliability items, just means more performance at this point.

Yep, this is the same broken record conversation that's been going on since we started in 2014.    

 

There are not always easy answers to the questions, but a good arms crossed NO would be a good answer more often than its used.    So many things have worked through the system one at time, and like you said, they have all added up to faster cars than existed a few years ago.   

 

The bucket does fill up and overflow even if its only a drop at a time.  

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It doesn't save you any money.  

 

It saves you points.

 

You were always allowed to run an aluminum radiator.  They just cost points.

 

Nobody changed the cost of aluminum radiators, they changed how many points they are.

 

10 points equals a splitter or wing.

 

This is very good perspective.  

 

It really only saves points.  The cheaper radiator was always available but you had to choose between that and something else to stay in the 500 point limit.  

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2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

As I've said before, and I'm sure I'll say it again....

 

When I started in chumpcar, we had an almost entirely stock 2nd gen rx7.  It was valued at 520 pts with the way the aiv rules were.  We finished 3rd in our first race.

 

Now, I have an airdam, splitter, rear wing, some suspension parts, coilovers,  an engine swap, a trans swap, and some other stuff that I can't remember.  I'm now below 500 pts.

 

The free stuff adds up over time.

 

Brakes, radiators, swap stuff, shifters, springs, lower point values for items, etc.  It all adds up over time.

 

Does that 10 to 15 seconds quicker a lap make the race more exciting?  Or does it just make the racing more expensive?

 

I understand that less maintenance costs means more entries.

 

Make the performance items cost more points and give the reliability stuff away for free.

 

We are giving the reliability stuff away for free, but not raising any performance values.

 

Champcar has already established that they / we will not reign in items that are too low in value.  Therefore more free stuff,  even if it is reliability items, just means more performance at this point.

 

You have some good points, and I agree that if the whole field is going much faster it doesn’t do anything to improve the racing, of course close competitive racing is what we always want.

 

The problem with raising the points on speed parts comes when the series allows newer, faster cars into the series, that are fast without needing those speed parts. The series must grow and move on, allowing new cars into the series or we become historic racing and some new teams will never come to the series. Some of those newer cars are inherently much faster than the cars that are already running in the series. The only way to allow current cars to keep up is to allow them more and more performance parts, if not they will just be left in the dust.

 

How do you think your stock RX7 would fare in todays ChampCar against the likes of Boxters, and SC300’s?

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1 hour ago, mhr650 said:

 

. The series must grow and move on, allowing new cars into the series or we become historic racing and some new teams will never come to the series. Some of those newer cars are inherently much faster than the cars that are already running in the series. The only way to allow current cars to keep up is to allow them more and more performance parts, if not they will just be left in the dust.

 

 

 

Not necessarily.  If the newer cars with more potential are limited VPI points wise, they won't be overdogs. 

 

I'm not saying this is an easy trick however. 

 

Go look at SCCA Improved Touring.  On some levels the rules were similar to Champ.  IT was the largest group in all of SCCA for a while, but there were changes that came in cars and rules that made it hard to keep new cars coming in while keeping the old cars viable.  Now it can be hard to scrape together 10 cars across the 5 classes at a race weekend.

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1 hour ago, mhr650 said:

 

You have some good points, and I agree that if the whole field is going much faster it doesn’t do anything to improve the racing, of course close competitive racing is what we always want.

 

The problem with raising the points on speed parts comes when the series allows newer, faster cars into the series, that are fast without needing those speed parts. The series must grow and move on, allowing new cars into the series or we become historic racing and some new teams will never come to the series. Some of those newer cars are inherently much faster than the cars that are already running in the series. The only way to allow current cars to keep up is to allow them more and more performance parts, if not they will just be left in the dust.

 

How do you think your stock RX7 would fare in todays ChampCar against the likes of Boxters, and SC300’s?

Probably just fine if the boxster started 5 or 6 laps down....  550 or 560 vpi?  

 

What I mean is the older cars already have a lower starting value.  The newer cars have a higher starting value.  Just raise the vpi of some of the newer cars, if necessary.

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11 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Probably just fine if the boxster started 5 or 6 laps down....  550 or 560 vpi?  

 

What I mean is the older cars already have a lower starting value.  The newer cars have a higher starting value.  Just raise the vpi of some of the newer cars, if necessary.

Champcar seems to have the idea that every new car should be at 500 points, which is course tilts the whole field and then the free parts and speed creep starts again.

 

Take care of your current customers. if somebody doesn't want to start five laps down they can build a different car. Much better than outdating everyone else just for the sake of saying that Champcar must "move on". 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, mender said:

Champcar seems to have the idea that every new car should be at 500 points, which is course tilts the whole field and then the free parts and speed creep starts again.

 

Take care of your current customers. if somebody doesn't want to start five laps down they can build a different car. Much better than outdating everyone else just for the sake of saying that Champcar must "move on". 


Actually in most cases we would have been better off if we had done that. The new cars that have added to “speed creep” have been some that were given values below 500 points. If the boxter had been given 500 instead of 475 it probably would have been fine. The approach the last couple of years has been to be more conservative on assignments. All that said, there really is no point in adding a car to the list if it is much over 500 points. Nobody serious about racing in the series would ever build it. Anybody that argues that, please list an example because there are plenty of fast cars that could be built that are already on the list over 500. 
 

This whole notion of speed creep being only due to free parts is a narrow view. Cars get faster without any of that. Drivers in the series get better. Most teams on the pointy end do something every race to make the cars faster. If you don’t you are going backwards. 

Edited by Rodger Coan-Burningham
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2 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


Actually in most cases we would have been better off if we had done that. The new cars that have added to “speed creep” have been some that were given values below 500 points. If the boxter had been given 500 instead of 475 it probably would have been fine. The approach the last couple of years has been to be more conservative on assignments. All that said, there really is no point in adding a car to the list if it is much over 500 points. Nobody serious about racing in the series would ever build it. Anybody that argues that, please list an example because there are plenty of fast cars that could be built that are already on the list over 500. 
 

This whole notion of speed creep being only due to free parts is a narrow view. Cars get faster without any of that. Drivers in the series get better. Most teams on the pointy end do something every race to make the cars faster. If you don’t you are going backwards. 

Entirely true.

 

However, none of that stuff allowed me to get coilovers all around, a different engine. A different trans.  A wing.  A splitter.  An airdam.......

 

T hats what is hurting.  It's costing me lots more money to go the same speed relative to everyone else.  

 

The speedcreep itself isn't an issue.  It's all the free stuff that costs real money that is now needed to keep up.

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2 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

This whole notion of speed creep being only due to free parts is a narrow view. Cars get faster without any of that. Drivers in the series get better. Most teams on the pointy end do something every race to make the cars faster. If you don’t you are going backwards. 

For car development, if the rules and therefore allowed new parts don't change, the law of diminishing returns curtails any large steps forward in speed. Driver development will happen regardless but again will see diminishing returns as the driver gets closer to the maximum potential of the car.

 

Freezing the rules and car list for three years to get control of what's already out there would be a step in the right direction IMO, and putting a limit on the age of new cars being considered would put a filter on the factory development being introduced. For example, less than 15 (or 20 or 12) years old goes into EC and allows CC time to properly evaluate the VPI to make sure that it fits in with the established values for the other 2000 teams in the series.

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2 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

All that said, there really is no point in adding a car to the list if it is much over 500 points. Nobody serious about racing in the series would ever build it. Anybody that argues that, please list an example because there are plenty of fast cars that could be built that are already on the list over 500. 

Instead of deciding for them, put in on the list with an appropriate value and let them figure out whether they should go that route.

 

If a car has enough potential, teams will build it despite being over that perceived ceiling of 500 points. But putting it at 500 points skews the rest of the VPI table and starts another round of catch-up with the attending cost and speed creep. 

 

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1 hour ago, mender said:

Instead of deciding for them, put in on the list with an appropriate value and let them figure out whether they should go that route.

 

If a car has enough potential, teams will build it despite being over that perceived ceiling of 500 points. But putting it at 500 points skews the rest of the VPI table and starts another round of catch-up with the attending cost and speed creep. 

 


No they won’t. It’s just another hypothetical you are operating in. Name one car that has been built more than 520 points and is competitive. There aren’t any. There are plenty of cars on the list above that number. Just no serious builder is going to do it.

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Another thought on this is the initial cost of these late models is against ChampCars mission statement IMO. How one can justify $20,000 or more to just buy one if these to cage it and race it? To me that's not an affordable way to go racing. I liked the idea of a dollar cap. But I do realize that affordable is dependent on ones net worth.. 

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Just now, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Another thought on this is the initial cost of these late models is against ChampCars mission statement IMO. How one can justify $20,000 or more to just buy one if these to cage it and race it? To me that's not an affordable way to go racing. I liked the idea of a dollar cap. But I do realize that affordable is dependent on ones net worth.. 

 

What car is $20,000?

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Just now, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

What car is $20,000?

Start looking at our lists, and to find a decent one can easily be in that ball park if one has the money to do it . Even to me $10,000 is too much.

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7 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Start looking at our lists, and to find a decent one can easily be in that ball park if one has the money to do it . Even to me $10,000 is too much.


A decent what kind of car?

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30 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


A decent what kind of car?

Say a Boxster, or a newer BMW, Audi, even Vw's, FRS, BRz would be nice too. there not $500 by any means.

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4 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Say a Boxster, or a newer BMW, Audi, even Vw's, FRS, BRz would be nice too. there not $500 by any means.


There is a Boxster on Copart in Raleigh for $1750. Probably has a bad engine. But you wanna go through that engine anyway. But I get your point you’re going to have to spend some money on some of the cars. We probably won’t be adding any new cars to the list that are less than 10 years old. I’m not really sure why we did that anyway.

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3 minutes ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

Say a Boxster, or a newer BMW, Audi, even Vw's, FRS, BRz would be nice too. there not $500 by any means.

I guess in hindsight I should have looked at the for sale cars before building my Rabbit but being new to the series I didn't know any better at the time and I enjoyed the build and rebuild so far and will continue to build as I can afford to. It would be nice to be somewhat more competitive but again it doesn't deminish the fun of a race weekend. As it is I have a $600.00 car initial cost with upgrades equaling about $15.000 total to race and that doesn't include any labor time that's parts and spares act 

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1 minute ago, Timothy G. Elliott said:

I guess in hindsight I should have looked at the for sale cars before building my Rabbit but being new to the series I didn't know any better at the time and I enjoyed the build and rebuild so far and will continue to build as I can afford to. It would be nice to be somewhat more competitive but again it doesn't deminish the fun of a race weekend. As it is I have a $600.00 car initial cost with upgrades equaling about $15.000 total to race and that doesn't include any labor time that's parts and spares act 


Yeah the best thing to do is not keep up with how much you spend. That way you can honestly deny when you get pressed. 

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30 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


Yeah the best thing to do is not keep up with how much you spend. That way you can honestly deny when you get pressed. 

we never try, plausible deniability is best here

 

We had a guy ask “how much” as the shark sat on podium Sunday @ CMP To my teams surprise I pulled a number (that sounded high) the “buyer” pondered it pretty hard.

On the way home, not including anything purchased, we tried adding up hours spent building the car, we roughly came up with $.30 an hour.

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38 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I’m not really sure why we did that anyway.

Because "we" changes every 3 years or so. There will never be consistency here unless there is a mission statement that the current "we" uses to make decisions.

 

BTW, I'm quite sure the original VPI given to the boxster was at least 500.

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14 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

we never try, plausible deniability is best here

 

We had a guy ask “how much” as the shark sat on podium Sunday @ CMP To my teams surprise I pulled a number (that sounded high) the “buyer” pondered it pretty hard.

On the way home, not including anything purchased, we tried adding up hours spent building the car, we roughly came up with $.30 an hour.

I think I would show a fairly large negative number on my labor were I to sell it...    

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7 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


No they won’t. It’s just another hypothetical you are operating in. Name one car that has been built more than 520 points and is competitive. There aren’t any. There are plenty of cars on the list above that number. Just no serious builder is going to do it.

Why do we need to add those newer cars then?

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