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2021 Board of Directors Annual Meeting - Virtual


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Personally, I don't care if new cars get added. 

 

I just think they should be added at a realistic value to allow existing champcars to remain relevant.

 

That being said, there are still some competitive cars that were new in the 80s and 90s so I'm not sure that we aren't close on rules parity amongst the 40 or so years of competitive cars in champcar.

 

That doesn't mean that it hasn't got drastically more expensive to run champcar.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

I proposed and received approval at the last board meeting a rolling 15 year rule.

 

Cars already on the list <15 yrs old = good to go, no blanket changes.

Cars NOT on the list >15 years old = put in a request via tech desk, new cars added quarterly, EC until then (no change from current system)

Cars NOT on the list <15 years old = Will not be added to the list at this time.  Welcome to come race in EC under current rules (2.2.2)

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28 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

I proposed and received approval at the last board meeting a rolling 15 year rule.

 

Cars already on the list <15 yrs old = good to go, no blanket changes.

Cars NOT on the list >15 years old = put in a request via tech desk, new cars added quarterly, EC until then (no change from current system)

Cars NOT on the list <15 years old = Will not be added to the list at this time.  Welcome to come race in EC under current rules (2.2.2)

Oh, cool.  I didn't realize that was happening.

 

Thanks for the information! 

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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On 7/17/2021 at 8:17 PM, Chris Huggins said:

I proposed and received approval at the last board meeting a rolling 15 year rule.

 

Cars already on the list <15 yrs old = good to go, no blanket changes.

Cars NOT on the list >15 years old = put in a request via tech desk, new cars added quarterly, EC until then (no change from current system)

Cars NOT on the list <15 years old = Will not be added to the list at this time.  Welcome to come race in EC under current rules (2.2.2)

What newer cars are we worried about? Can you give specific examples of newer modern cars that we should not have that are not in the vpi list?  I think a lot of newer cars are usually small little cars with small gas tanks. I wonder what the average fuel tank size of cars is on newer ones, I suspect the tanks are smaller as they get more efficient.

 

I think you have two main types of modern cars to look at. The smaller lower hp ones and the higher hp ones. The higher HP ones are going to be usually more expensive and obviously too fast for our series. What comes to mind is C5 Corvettes, V8 Mustangs and Camaros, Higher end Audi. ect. I think all agree that that type of speed is not for Champcar and there is WRL/AER for that.

 

I think the lower hp ones fit perfect into Champcar though. The VPI list below, with cars running, are perfect examples.

 

I did a quick google search of cars in the last decade that are good sports cars. Some on the list and what I would think fits in champcar and does not

Miatas- duh, ofcourse they fit, that is exactly what Champcar is all about. Affordable fun small low hp sports cars.

FRZ-BRZ- yup, same as above

2015 vw golf gti- I think this fits, though I have not seen one run yet.

2015 mustang v6- 300hp, but heavy, I think this fits with the speed we have

 

Maybe nots

370z- I think the hp 332hp and potential is too fast

i135 300hp- It might be too light for that hp, but not sure, plus the cost is very high

s5 354hp- hp and speed too high

03 vette- light and fast, beyond what we see as speed

 

That is what popped up when doing google searches. The rest were older and already on the list and racing today. 

 

I just wonder what we gain by saying no new cars that are newer than 15 years? Which cars will it not allow on the list that we would have before?

 

 

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I just wonder what we gain by saying no new cars that are newer than 15 years? Which cars will it not allow on the list that we would have before?

 

Among other things, it will prevent the unintended consequence of a particular swap that could come into play.  As you say, a lot of the newer cars are fuel limited, but put one of their power plants in an older car with fuel, it may result in an overdog. 

 

And don't forget, there are currently already something like 240 cars on the list of models made after the year 2000.  How many do we need?

 

I am not against bringing in new cars, we must do that to remain relevant over several years.  But doing it slowly over time seems to be a prudent approach.  There are lots of ways to do it, we chose the method of using -x years from present to be able to add to the list.

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8 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

Among other things, it will prevent the unintended consequence of a particular swap that could come into play.  As you say, a lot of the newer cars are fuel limited, but put one of their power plants in an older car with fuel, it may result in an overdog. 

 

And don't forget, there are currently already something like 240 cars on the list of models made after the year 2000.  How many do we need?

 

I am not against bringing in new cars, we must do that to remain relevant over several years.  But doing it slowly over time seems to be a prudent approach.  There are lots of ways to do it, we chose the method of using -x years from present to be able to add to the list.

Roger. I think anything is possible, but I hate the idea of limiting cars to years or teams. We might be worrying about something that might never happen and in doing so could be making a barrier for teams to enter Champcar. I never want that and as a business we always need to invite new customers.

 

Do you know of specific swap? I know there was a concern over certain cars entering with specific DCT, and I get that, so we could limit those entering, or put a rule that says non DCT cars are VPI X only. Other than that example, is there another I am not aware of?

 

Now if the swap formula and calculator work I do not see an issue with a newer engine going in an older car. HP to that car. We have E30's with modern K swaps in them and they are a competitive car that runs fine, when it runs, and do not run away with it. I see that as fine and does not hurt newer cars from entering.

 

I do worry that if we put a rule that says only grandfathered cars newer than 15 years are allowed will cause teams to go to other series and never come back. I am not a fan of the, go to EC, race for a while and drive around not in the real race, pay us money to see how you do and then, maybe, just maybe, we will put you on the list if we feel like it. Or, your car is only 12 years old. We need you to race in EC for 3 years and then we can enter you in the real show. If that was me I would be like, no thanks, I will go where I wanted. 

 

I think we have tools and experience to know if a car should be a Champcar or not.  We can look up the stats and extrapolate the possible results without bias. We have TAC, their experience and the tools to calculate what a value should be.

 

When the BOD made the rule for no newer cars than 15 years and only grandfathered cars are allowed, what were the examples that caused it? I am thinking there must be some car out there or team running certain cars that has us making a rule to exclude them?

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4 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

No.

Scrolled back up and read what Huggins posted. The later grandfathered comments I took to mean as cars that had been run.

 

Cool.

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On 7/17/2021 at 6:38 AM, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


No they won’t. It’s just another hypothetical you are operating in. Name one car that has been built more than 520 points and is competitive. There aren’t any. There are plenty of cars on the list above that number. Just no serious builder is going to do it.

I'm surprised that no one has built an E46 330i yet, at 530 points it's a tempting build.

 

But apparently at 500 points a 2000 Nissan Frontier would be a better choice for a competitive build, right? 

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4 minutes ago, mender said:

 

But apparently at 500 points a 2000 Nissan Frontier would be a better choice for a competitive build, right? 


I assume you are astute enough to know that vehicle is on the list so someone can rob the engine and put it in a race car. 

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Roger. I think anything is possible, but I hate the idea of limiting cars to years or teams. We might be worrying about something that might never happen and in doing so could be making a barrier for teams to enter Champcar. I never want that and as a business we always need to invite new customers.

 

Do you know of specific swap? I know there was a concern over certain cars entering with specific DCT, and I get that, so we could limit those entering, or put a rule that says non DCT cars are VPI X only. Other than that example, is there another I am not aware of?

 

Now if the swap formula and calculator work I do not see an issue with a newer engine going in an older car. HP to that car. We have E30's with modern K swaps in them and they are a competitive car that runs fine, when it runs, and do not run away with it. I see that as fine and does not hurt newer cars from entering.

 

I do worry that if we put a rule that says only grandfathered cars newer than 15 years are allowed will cause teams to go to other series and never come back. I am not a fan of the, go to EC, race for a while and drive around not in the real race, pay us money to see how you do and then, maybe, just maybe, we will put you on the list if we feel like it. Or, your car is only 12 years old. We need you to race in EC for 3 years and then we can enter you in the real show. If that was me I would be like, no thanks, I will go where I wanted. 

 

I think we have tools and experience to know if a car should be a Champcar or not.  We can look up the stats and extrapolate the possible results without bias. We have TAC, their experience and the tools to calculate what a value should be.

 

When the BOD made the rule for no newer cars than 15 years and only grandfathered cars are allowed, what were the examples that caused it? I am thinking there must be some car out there or team running certain cars that has us making a rule to exclude them?

Direct injection engines are a significant step forward in both hp and fuel economy, so a swap with one of those into an older car could change things.

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7 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


I assume you are astute enough to know that vehicle is on the list so someone can rob the engine and put it in a race car. 

Of course. I can't say I agree with that policy but I'll use it if I can. :)

 

Edit: just checked the VPI list for GDI Ecotec engines for a Fiero swap, 182 hp and 10-15% better fuel economy plus less engine weight than the LX9 I was running means the 13.9 gallons would now be close enough to a two hour stint to be competitive. A little late as the Fiero already has a GDI swap but with a bit too much power for Champcar.  

Edited by mender
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On 7/17/2021 at 8:17 PM, Chris Huggins said:

I proposed and received approval at the last board meeting a rolling 15 year rule.

 

Cars already on the list <15 yrs old = good to go, no blanket changes.

Cars NOT on the list >15 years old = put in a request via tech desk, new cars added quarterly, EC until then (no change from current system)

Cars NOT on the list <15 years old = Will not be added to the list at this time.  Welcome to come race in EC under current rules (2.2.2)

There go my hopes of building a Porsche Macan. 😢

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40 minutes ago, mender said:

Direct injection engines are a significant step forward in both hp and fuel economy, so a swap with one of those into an older car could change things.

Though as the hp goes up so does the swap calculator. The fuel efficiency I did not think off, but I doubt someone would put that much effort into a swap just for that difference. The hp should work itself out though. 

 

Though if someone wanted a newer car with a direct injection motor I would think it could come with a smaller gas tank stock so that efficiency gain would not really matter.

41 minutes ago, mender said:

Of course. I can't say I agree with that policy but I'll use it if I can. :)

 

Edit: just checked the VPI list for GDI Ecotec engines for a Fiero swap, 182 hp and 10-15% better fuel economy plus less engine weight than the LX9 I was running means the 13.9 gallons would now be close enough to a two hour stint to be competitive. A little late as the Fiero already has a GDI swap but with a bit too much power for Champcar.  

So what you are saying is that the Fiero might be semi competitive if someone wanted to do that, maybe, if all went well in a perfect world. That seems like it would fit in the rules and Champcar just fine.

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1 hour ago, mender said:

I'm surprised that no one has built an E46 330i yet, at 530 points it's a tempting build.

 

But apparently at 500 points a 2000 Nissan Frontier would be a better choice for a competitive build, right? 

 

I will be crewing for a car that is exactly that configuration at the VIR 24hr. it is a nice car, still very stock but runs well and with the driver aids can run very consistently. Starting 6 laps down is tough to swallow though.

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The good and bad news is that pretty much any car that would be appropriate for ChampCar is already on the market. There are some incredibly interesting engine programs going on in the industry, but in the US nothing but an SUV will sell so nobody is going to be putting them into anything else. If cars do make a comeback in the future, they will be electric.

 

Like I said there are some really cool projects out there, everyone is looking at this as the last combustion engine project they will ever have and throwing the kitchen sink at it as far as technology. Good for me that I have plenty of combustion engine work left to get me to retirement.

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3 hours ago, mender said:

Of course. I can't say I agree with that policy but I'll use it if I can. :)

 

Edit: just checked the VPI list for GDI Ecotec engines for a Fiero swap, 182 hp and 10-15% better fuel economy plus less engine weight than the LX9 I was running means the 13.9 gallons would now be close enough to a two hour stint to be competitive. A little late as the Fiero already has a GDI swap but with a bit too much power for Champcar.  

Check the unicorn thread.

 

2.0 turbo diesel from the Cruze. 😎

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4 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:


I assume you are astute enough to know that vehicle is on the list so someone can rob the engine and put it in a race car. 

This is something that's always bothered me.  Why are we allowing vehicles onto the VPI list that nobody races just so the engine is now available for a swap?  

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17 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

This is something that's always bothered me.  Why are we allowing vehicles onto the VPI list that nobody races just so the engine is now available for a swap?  

Probably because someone said “I want to race this, put it on the list”, and then ChampCar had to put it on the list. 

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4 hours ago, mhr650 said:

 

I will be crewing for a car that is exactly that configuration at the VIR 24hr. it is a nice car, still very stock but runs well and with the driver aids can run very consistently. Starting 6 laps down is tough to swallow though.

Third place finished 10 laps down last year...

 

I think it's a good package, I'll be watching!

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4 hours ago, QuaTTro said:

This is something that's always bothered me.  Why are we allowing vehicles onto the VPI list that nobody races just so the engine is now available for a swap?  


Not sure, I guess Chisek added them if people asked. 

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What do people think of swap engines from cars that are not on the VPI list?

 

I'm guessing those are fine while having an Explorer or Silverado on the VPI list is unacceptable.

 

Per CC rules the only vehicles allowed to compete are those available in the US or Canada. Yet that doesn't apply to some swaps.

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10 hours ago, mender said:

Direct injection engines are a significant step forward in both hp and fuel economy, so a swap with one of those into an older car could change things.

If memory serves, DI is a pretty small improvement over a good port injection. Like 3% or so. Maybe I’ll recheck some sources. 
 

Also I would assume a lesser advantage at WOT versus typical commuter driving. I don’t think big improvements would be seen in race conditions. 

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

If memory serves, DI is a pretty small improvement over a good port injection. Like 3% or so. Maybe I’ll recheck some sources. 
 

Also I would assume a lesser advantage at WOT versus typical commuter driving. I don’t think big improvements would be seen in race conditions. 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44730726

 

Just the compression ratio change is worth about 3%:

https://www.musclecardiy.com/cylinder-heads/maximizing-cylinder-head-compression-ratios-power-part-12/ 

 

Also, more oxygen gets through the same intake tract because there's no fuel being induced with the air. 

Edited by mender
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