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2021 Board of Directors Annual Meeting - Virtual


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8 hours ago, petawawarace said:

I’m sorry, but you guys missed the bar again with the radiator rule.  My $160 Amazon Rad has 3 rows, so it’s 30 points.  But I can buy a $1500 fancy 2 row rad and it’s 0 points.  How does that fit Champcars mission?   5 minutes on google would have caught this.   
 

Basing this rule off of how many rows the rad has is not a valuable metric.  

Agreed!

 

My car was a factory AC HD cooling V8 car/truck, but it had an old brass radiator that leaked. I changed to a cheap china aluminum 3 row as a replacement, because I did not want plastic tanks. Now I have to change my current set-up to accommodate the new rules or pay points for an alternative. 

Edited by Mean'O'Mullet
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6 hours ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

As a BOD we could not come to an agreement on any of the petitions for a tire rule. 

A lot of people won't like this, but sometimes it's better to have a benevolent dictator.

 

SCCA has boards and committees. Check out their rulebook.

 

btw-You already ban tires. And a method that avoids whack a mole or a spec tire was suggested. ie; Approved tire list. There are plenty of good wearing choices and everyone knows what they are.

 

With this being moved unfortunately I forgot about it until too late so didn't get to watch/listen.

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7 hours ago, petawawarace said:

I’m sorry, but you guys missed the bar again with the radiator rule.  My $160 Amazon Rad has 3 rows, so it’s 30 points.  But I can buy a $1500 fancy 2 row rad and it’s 0 points.  How does that fit Champcars mission?   5 minutes on google would have caught this.   
 

Basing this rule off of how many rows the rad has is not a valuable metric.  

What cars are likely to need bigger, thicker radiators?

 

Ones with bigger engines.

 

Obvious where this came from.

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57 minutes ago, Bandit said:

btw-You already ban tires. And a method that avoids whack a mole or a spec tire was suggested. ie; Approved tire list. There are plenty of good wearing choices and everyone knows what they are.

Yup. Instead of "180 TW tires", put in "these 180 TW tires".

 

But lobbyists do what they do and get what they get.

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6 hours ago, petawawarace said:

But this one that costs 3.5x as much is a-ok?   
 

Come-on guys. 

573A9C87-2CA8-44B2-A9B6-C640052A6CE3.png

If that one will work, look for one for a 2nd gen rx7.  Similar hose locations and similar fill port.

 

I do understand your point.  I'm not sure what to do about it or how I would propose to fix it.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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For the TAC-All of those VPI suggestions that were requested for the GM cars? Subtract 30 from them. V8's don't mix well with 2 core radiators. (I'm guessing that is the point...)

 

Thanks.

 

Radiators, that do zilch for laptime, are penalized but the BOD can't do anything about tire costs. Seems to me the priorities are a bit screwed up.

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

If that one will work, look for one for a 2nd gen rx7.  Similar hose locations and similar fill port.

 

I do understand your point.  I'm not sure what to do about it or how I would propose to fix it.

I just picked that rad randomly. Has nothing to do with my needs. Just trying to show that using the 1-2 or 3 row has about as much merit as separating them by color.  
 

Either open all the rads up to 0 points or leave the rule as is. At least the current rule tries to control the costs. This new one does sweet F all to control costs.  

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1 hour ago, mender said:

Can't find the number of rows on that one; double pass isn't a two row.

True.  But there’s no limit on passes are there?   So a 3,4,5 pass radiator is ok, but a 3 row isn’t?? 
 

A 2 row, 3 pass rad is going to be a lot better than a single pass 3 row rad. But still 0 points.  See how stupid that is?

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E30 2 row rad - 0 points - $800

https://www.bimmerworld.com/C-R-Racing-E30-M3-Aluminum-Performance-Radiator.html

 

Spec Miata rad. 2 row - 0 points - $839

https://offlineracing.com/categories/AWR-Competition-Radiators/Mazda-Miata/

 

Porsche 944 - 2 row - 0 points - $619

https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944RADBIL.html


C4 - 2 row - 0 points - $689. 
https://www.zip-corvette.com/84-89-direct-fit-aluminum-radiator.html

 

Seeing my point?  

Here’s the best part.  Arguably the highest quality radiators out there , Ron Davis Radiators only use 2 row cores.  So I can call them up and have them make me a $1500+ custom rad and it’ll be 0 points.  

 

Edited by petawawarace
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9 hours ago, petawawarace said:

E30 2 row rad - 0 points - $800

https://www.bimmerworld.com/C-R-Racing-E30-M3-Aluminum-Performance-Radiator.html

 

Spec Miata rad. 2 row - 0 points - $839

https://offlineracing.com/categories/AWR-Competition-Radiators/Mazda-Miata/

 

Porsche 944  - 2 row - 0 points - $619

https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944RADBIL.html


C4 - 2 row - 0 points - $689. 
https://www.zip-corvette.com/84-89-direct-fit-aluminum-radiator.html

 

Seeing my point?  

Here’s the best part.  Arguably the highest quality radiators out there , Ron Davis Radiators only use 2 row cores.  So I can call them up and have them make me a $1500+ custom rad and it’ll be 0 points.  

 

 

The top one is for a M3.

 

Heres a stock 944 radiator for you.  You think this guy is upset he can buy a cheaper radiator now?

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/porsche-radiator-944-924-11543003001#fitment

 

Heres a C4 rad for $300 thats now free

https://speedcooling.com/1984-1989-Corvette-C4-Aluminum-Radiator.html

 

Everything is so different across different models.  There's NEVER going to be a perfect rule that doesn't upset someone.  Impossible.

 

We can't stop you from going out and spending $1500 on a radiator.  You could have done that last year, you can do that this year.

You can also go spend $20k on a full motec setup, loom your harness with $10k worth of motorsport connectors, and pay a pit crew to come service your cars.  And you will still probably get beat by a crapbox that came to the track behind a 25 year old RV running a stock radiator.  

 

 

 

Man, this is funny, seeing it from the other side.  Normally I'm the guy bitching.  As Ed says, the irony stings my eyes.

 

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18 hours ago, Mean'O'Mullet said:

PXL_20210617_023828225.jpg.37139070e2c383f527189aefdac18427.jpg

Agreed!

 

My car was a factory AC HD cooling V8 car/truck, but it had an old brass radiator that leaked. I changed to a cheap china aluminum 3 row as a replacement, because I did not want plastic tanks. Now I have to change my current set-up to accommodate the new rules or pay points for an alternative. 

4 cores were not uncommon on V8's with AC.

 

If you are lucky, you may still have a radiator shop nearby that can do a recore. Won't be cheap, but cheaper than a 2 core that can actually cool a V8.

 

*Assuming we won't be hit with 30 points for a stock 3 or 4 core rad....

 

Would be nice if the TAC/BOD had someone that knows domestics a bit. This rad thing is a good example as is; "Oil pans were lowered to 20 points as they are used to cool oil like an oil cooler."  😂 Yeah, ok....

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3 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

The top one is for a M3.

 

Heres a stock 944 radiator for you.  You think this guy is upset he can buy a cheaper radiator now?

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/porsche-radiator-944-924-11543003001#fitment

 

Heres a C4 rad for $300 thats now free

https://speedcooling.com/1984-1989-Corvette-C4-Aluminum-Radiator.html

 

Everything is so different across different models.  There's NEVER going to be a perfect rule that doesn't upset someone.  Impossible.

 

We can't stop you from going out and spending $1500 on a radiator.  You could have done that last year, you can do that this year.

You can also go spend $20k on a full motec setup, loom your harness with $10k worth of motorsport connectors, and pay a pit crew to come service your cars.  And you will still probably get beat by a crapbox that came to the track behind a 25 year old RV running a stock radiator.  

 

 

 

Man, this is funny, seeing it from the other side.  Normally I'm the guy bitching.  As Ed says, the irony stings my eyes.

 

Chris, 

Im glad that you think constant rule changing, arbitrary lines drawn, and regularly screwing over your members with rules that are not properly researched and thought out is “funny”. 

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1 minute ago, petawawarace said:

Chris, 

Im glad that you think constant rule changing, arbitrary lines drawn, and regularly screwing over your members with rules that are not properly researched and thought out is “funny”. 

I think it's funny a BOD member wanted a free skid plate for his oil pan while arguing accusumps should stay 10 points.

 

There's some irony.

 

BOD worried about runaway radiators while multi thousand dollar tire bills are hunky dory.

 

Will cars that CAME WITH a 3 or 4 core radiator be able to replace with the same? One can't just pick up a Harrison from Autozone anymore and the local radiator shop closed up 20 years ago.

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How much horsepower are y'all putting out that you need a 3 core?

 

I'm just curious.  Not stirring the pot.

 

I mean 300 hp doesn't need a 3 or 4 core.

 

(Yes, I realize that the point is about the unexpected rule change and that the opinion is that it is I'll conceived)

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

How much horsepower are y'all putting out that you need a 3 core?

 

I'm just curious.  Not stirring the pot.

 

I mean 300 hp doesn't need a 3 or 4 core.

 

(Yes, I realize that the point is about the unexpected rule change and that the opinion is that it is I'll conceived)

I’m putting 174hp to the wheels.  I honestly didn’t even realize the one I bought was 3 row.  Because at the time the rule was all aluminum rads were open.  
 

I understand that I could buy another rad but why? The metric doesn’t make any sense.  I can buy a 2 row rad that is 6x the price I paid for the 3 row too. 
 

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This discussion leads to the general discussion of if the rules are trying to be performance based or cost based.

 

We left cost based when we went to the points system and got rid of the 2 x rules.

 

Therefore, we are moving towards performance based.

 

I can see this being a line in the sand that is furthering the performance rule based trend.

 

I agree that it will have an negative impact on certain teams and possibly models of cars.  

 

However, I don't think anybody NEEDS a 3 or 4 row radiator unless putting out more than 300 hp.  Even then, a larger radiator could be used to make up the capacity needed.

 

So, the 2 sides of the coin...

1) this is a performance based rule that should impact a small minority of teams. (which I applaud) 

2) there are ways around this rule, but that doesn't help the currently affected teams.

 

What now?

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4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

This discussion leads to the general discussion of if the rules are trying to be performance based or cost based.

 

We left cost based when we went to the points system and got rid of the 2 x rules.

 

Therefore, we are moving towards performance based.

 

I can see this being a line in the sand that is furthering the performance rule based trend.

 

I agree that it will have an negative impact on certain teams and possibly models of cars.  

 

However, I don't think anybody NEEDS a 3 or 4 row radiator unless putting out more than 300 hp.  Even then, a larger radiator could be used to make up the capacity needed.

 

So, the 2 sides of the coin...

1) this is a performance based rule that should impact a small minority of teams. (which I applaud) 

2) there are ways around this rule, but that doesn't help the currently affected teams.

 

What now?

What about double and triple pass rads?  They make a way bigger difference than the extra rows.  Yet there’s no rule on them.  

Edited by petawawarace
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How easy is it to spot the difference between 2 and 3 core? I haven’t a clue about my radiator. Also wouldn’t know what to look for. Also I fail to see how the number of cores, whatever that may be, affects cooling. Cooling will be determined by a function of total fin surface area and how easily air flows through it.

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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

However, I don't think anybody NEEDS a 3 or 4 row radiator unless putting out more than 300 hp.  Even then, a larger radiator could be used to make up the capacity needed.

As a car approaching 250rwhp, our stock ford explorer aluminum core/plastic tank rad we pay(payed?) 5 pts for does a fine job, the only failures we have are driver induced....

 

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6 minutes ago, enginerd said:

How easy is it to spot the difference between 2 and 3 core? I haven’t a clue about my radiator. Also wouldn’t know what to look for. Also I fail to see how the number of cores, whatever that may be, affects cooling. Cooling will be determined by a function of total fin surface area and how easily air flows through it.

It’s tough. Some rads that have caps on the top are easy. Others you need to look at very closely. Others use an extrusion that appears to be a single row but is actually 10+ smaller ones.  
 

Your right about the cooling. That’s why this doesn’t make sense.
 

The reason for multiple rows is so that they don’t balloon.  When they were all made of brass, as the rad got deeper, the tubes got wider and started to balloon. This restricted airflow after a while.  So they went with more tubes to stop that. With newer ones being made from aluminum, they are stronger, so a 2 row can be as wide as an older 4 row. Same basic cooling properties. 
 

Ive sent all this info to the BOD.  I would have expected the TAC to point some of that out, but it appears they didn’t.  

Edited by petawawarace
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