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47 minutes ago, mender said:

I've seen this stated several times but am interested in the origin of this decision.

 

1. Who made the decision and when?

2. Has it been revisited since the tire manufacturers targeted the 200TW market as their next battleground with the resulting rebranding of lower TW tires to put sticky tires into that market?

3. What was the original intent of the 180 TW rule? Cost? Speed? 

4. Is the 180 TW rule still effective for that purpose? 

5. If not, what would it realistically take to make it serve the original purpose? 

 

I remember this one. The 200 limit was changed to 180 to allow the Yokohama AD008 in. It's a moot point now since Yokohama rebranded that tire to 200 TW, and it is not a tire that is particularly fast or popular. 

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My arguing skills must have improved, 3 out of 4 approved, and the 4th one I charged my mind and wound have recalled it if I could have. 

 

Of course I didn't submit a tire petition so that really helped my average... 

Edited by mhr650
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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Well the team that  earned the #1 panel at the championship race smoked through plenty Yokohama's.  Not a cheap tire. They are a truly good team and would have had a great finish on Hankooks too,  would they have won?  We will never know will we.

The first and second place finishers both days at RA were on soft tires. 

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8 hours ago, chip said:

What if I want to rebuild the engine after every race and replace every part that might fail? Lots of money there. Are the rules making me do this? Nope. What’s the problem if I want to spend that kind of money? Does that mean every team needs to do this? Nope. 

We all know that rebuilding an engine after every race is not realistic and in reality doesn't really make your car faster as you are not allowed to do things when rebuilding to make the engine that much faster than stock. You can not stroke an engine or bore it way out. You can not use custom pistons and raise the compression. All you are allowed to do is freshen it up. If you want to pull the engine out and apart to put new bearings, maybe hone the block with new rings, go right ahead and do it. I do not see the gain or advantage there, have at it. The first rebuild with the honeing, decking the block, stock valve job, porting if you want to, will give you all the gains you need.

 

The question I ask, why bring that up to defend the position that some teams have the money to spend on tires that equates to gained speed for zero points of penalty versus others who do not have the money?

 

On that note, can we name another racing series that basically has an open tire rule, like we do now? Sure the 180tw is a rule, but we all know that is a total joke now and does not apply.

 

Champcar- 180tw- do whatever you want, no rules, have at it, no penalty or consequence. Fair playing field, bahaa. 

WRL- 180tw -no pit time limit so it would really hurt burning through tires and make that a moot point.

AER- 180tw- Not allowed in the hot pits and not jacking allowed at all.

LuckyDog- 180tw -Spec tire RS4

NASA- There is an entire list of tires that have speed with multiplers

SCCA- Tire rules, lots of tire rules

IMSA- Lots of tires rules and spec tires

F1- Spec tire

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Well the team that  earned the #1 panel at the championship race smoked through plenty Yokohama's.  Not a cheap tire. They are a truly good team and would have had a great finish on Hankooks too,  would they have won?  We will never know will we.


We bought the Yokos at a discounted rate from team copper penny at Road Atlanta because they did not fit their Miata. 

At Autobahn we ran the Honda and the BMW on RS4s and Falkens. 

I plan to try the Maxxis VR-1 at Nelson Ledges. 

 

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1 hour ago, chip said:

This is still racing and racing costs money.  My stance on tires is that any rule legal tire is fine to run.  Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying you have to run the most expensive tire, or use multiple sets per race, or change them every pit stop.  But there are plenty of people that are complaining like the rules state this stuff.  You want to keep your costs down, then keep your costs down.  It's that simple.  Spend money where and how you want.  Other teams can choose how they spend their money- what does this matter to you?

 

My thought is do you not think tires matter? Do you not think teams with money can easily buy and pay for the speed of tires versus others that can not? Do you think there should be such a big advantage for some teams to spend money on tires while others can not?

 

I get spending money on this or that can gain you X or Y.  I just do not understand why tires are open and other speed items are not. It seems that almost all speed items are points and tires are not. Brakes are open, but in reality when people put better brakes on they are almost always to last longer and cost less in the long run.

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4 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think the top 3 were and top 4 of 5.

But you don't know- kind of like you said we were on A052...

 

So what if one tire is faster than another- some cars are faster than others.  Some drivers are faster than others.  Where does it stop.  Can every driver get those seconds out of the 'fast' tire?  Doubtful.

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1 minute ago, chip said:

But you don't know- kind of like you said we were on A052...

 

So what if one tire is faster than another- some cars are faster than others.  Some drivers are faster than others.  Where does it stop.  Can every driver get those seconds out of the 'fast' tire?  Doubtful.

Typically the faster cars have more points associated with them to begin with. 

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1 minute ago, chip said:

But you don't know- kind of like you said we were on A052...

 

So what if one tire is faster than another- some cars are faster than others.  Some drivers are faster than others.  Where does it stop.  Can every driver get those seconds out of the 'fast' tire?  Doubtful.

I actually do know since I was there racing, in the 4th place car and checked out the tires of the competitors. I looked at the top 3 in front and all on faster tires running faster times and thought we could have been up there if on faster tires also, but could not afford to run the tires.

 

I did get the tires you used on Saturday wrong and was remember from a post Chris put up, but read it wrong now that I looked it up again and found it. He was saying the other cars had Yoko and the grip was there when I was thinking it was the grip on your car. Sorry about that, I will try to be better next time.

 

Some cars are faster than others and we have a points based rule system that works pretty well to get cars to be pretty even, though no points or penalties on tires.

 

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12 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

My thought is do you not think tires matter? Do you not think teams with money can easily buy and pay for the speed of tires versus others that can not? Do you think there should be such a big advantage for some teams to spend money on tires while others can not?

 

I get spending money on this or that can gain you X or Y.  I just do not understand why tires are open and other speed items are not. It seems that almost all speed items are points and tires are not. Brakes are open, but in reality when people put better brakes on they are almost always to last longer and cost less in the long run.

I agree that some tires are faster than others.  I just don't care and don't feel this should be made into a rule.  I get that this is really upsetting you and others that some teams are changing tires multiple times a race.  Good for them.  Is this in the spirit of Champcar?  Probably not.  Do these select teams care?  Probably not.

 

So I will ask you the same questions-

What kind of tires do you run?  What's been your finishing position in your last 3 races?  What did the podium cars use for tires in those same races?

 

(@Rodger Coan-Burninghamsorry this is going against my job function for the team.  Maybe the job title can be changed to add pot stirring...)

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23 hours ago, chip said:

I agree that some tires are faster than others.  I just don't care and don't feel this should be made into a rule.  I get that this is really upsetting you and others that some teams are changing tires multiple times a race.  Good for them.  Is this in the spirit of Champcar?  Probably not.  Do these select teams care?  Probably not.

 

So I will ask you the same questions-

What kind of tires do you run?  What's been your finishing position in your last 3 races?  What did the podium cars use for tires in those same races?

 

(@Rodger Coan-Burninghamsorry this is going against my job function for the team.  Maybe the job title can be changed to add pot stirring...)

I have run RS4's for years, RS3 before that and Star specs before that on Bio, but have not won in years now and that is due to more factors than just tires, so I can not blame tires on it.  Though in the last two years we have debated going to fast tires as we have the seen the major advantage of it and speed increase, though we do not know how to afford it. We have one set of 4 re71r that we were hoping would last a full day to see how much better they really are.

 

I also drive for Visceral and at RA we got 4th with good driving, good strategy, ect. The 3 cars in front of us all had fast tires and we were on RS4's. 

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Just thinking…. The autocross tires could be worth about 2-3 seconds a lap, and I’d say proper aero is about the same. What about points-free aero with RS4’s and similar?  That doesn’t outlaw any tire and could make for interesting strategy.

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7 hours ago, ETR said:

Just thinking…. The autocross tires could be worth about 2-3 seconds a lap, and I’d say proper aero is about the same. What about points-free aero with RS4’s and similar?  That doesn’t outlaw any tire and could make for interesting strategy.

Not a bad idea. I’ve seen people say aero doesn’t count for much in our series, why pay points? If it’s not an advantage, don’t charge me for it. 

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8 hours ago, ETR said:

Just thinking…. The autocross tires could be worth about 2-3 seconds a lap, and I’d say proper aero is about the same. What about points-free aero with RS4’s and similar?  That doesn’t outlaw any tire and could make for interesting strategy.

Interesting thought.  Tests show that a good aero setup is similar in speed to good tires. I would that combo would be a good compromise or points should be for either aero and tires.

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On 6/25/2021 at 10:36 AM, chip said:

(@Rodger Coan-Burninghamsorry this is going against my job function for the team.  Maybe the job title can be changed to add pot stirring...)


Yeah that incentive bonus you were going to get is certainly not looking good for you right now.  Maybe next time you see Troy you can give him a big ole hug, might get you back in the money. 

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On 6/26/2021 at 11:28 AM, MR2 Biohazard said:

I have run RS4's for years, RS3 before that and Star specs before that on Bio, but have not won in years now and that is due to more factors than just tires, so I can not blame tires on it.  Though in the last two years we have debated going to fast tires as we have the seen the major advantage of it and speed increase, though we do not know how to afford it. We have one set of 4 re71r that we were hoping would last a full day to see how much better they really are.

 

I also drive for Visceral and at RA we got 4th with good driving, good strategy, ect. The 3 cars in front of us all had fast tires and we were on RS4's. 

So Pinkies Out won the CMP Sunday race on old scrub RS4s.  Maybe lasting the entire race matters more than tires.  Again, you choose where to spend money...

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27 minutes ago, chip said:

So Pinkies Out won the CMP Sunday race on old scrub RS4s.  Maybe lasting the entire race matters more than tires.  Again, you choose where to spend money...

Great job yet again on another win.

I do have two questions. 

1- What would you all do if you had fast tires? I can only imagine. I would bet it would be a good battle between you and Nemisis heads up with the same tires.

2- What if a team had the money to spend on reliability and blow money on tires?

 

I am outta here on the tire discussion. It is a beating a dead horse at this point. The series is what it is. Spend tons of money on tires to have that advantage if you can for zero points and enjoy. I have one days worth and will enjoy that day and then back to the RS4's that I have. Maybe someday things will change, but I just do not see it anytime soon.

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On 6/27/2021 at 10:04 PM, chip said:

So Pinkies Out won the CMP Sunday race on old scrub RS4s.  Maybe lasting the entire race matters more than tires.  Again, you choose where to spend money...


Disclaimer: We run RS4. I want to run REs but can’t afford it since we do 3 races a year. Usually 1-2s off front runner pace (6s off nemesis at CMP). 
 

You’ve admitted that richer teams can buy lap time with tires for 0 points. The whole rulebook is based on POINTS correlating to Speed. I just can’t understand how someone can argue that there shouldn’t be a rule here. I agree that consensus is hard to get on what the rule should be but arguing no rule should be made just because we win races on a hard tire is absurd.  

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Here you go. Grassroots figured out which tires are autocross tires and which ones are endurance tires and even made a pretty chart:

 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/

 

It's never been that it can't be done, it's that someone in Champcar doesn't want it. But if they ever change their mind, the info is out there. :)

Edited by mender
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25 minutes ago, mender said:

Here you go. Grassroots figured out which tires are autocross tires and which ones are endurance tires and even made a pretty chart:

 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/

 

It's never been that it can't been done, it's that someone in Champcar doesn't want it. But if they ever change their mind, the info is out there. :)

Great. Quote an article literally just released and throw shade at Champcar. 
 

Either adapt or die. Your complaining is exhausting. 

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9 hours ago, cowboys647 said:


Disclaimer: We run RS4. I want to run REs but can’t afford it since we do 3 races a year. Usually 1-2s off front runner pace (6s off nemesis at CMP). 
 

You’ve admitted that richer teams can buy lap time with tires for 0 points. The whole rulebook is based on POINTS correlating to Speed. I just can’t understand how someone can argue that there shouldn’t be a rule here. I agree that consensus is hard to get on what the rule should be but arguing no rule should be made just because we win races on a hard tire is absurd.  

[Devil's Advocate] 

I prefer to run even cheaper and slower and longer wearing tires than you do, your tire choice allows you to buy lap time that I can't afford

[/Devil's Advocate]

 

Moral of the story: "Affordable" is arbitrary, and everyone wants the line put at the point that they personally are comfortable/competitive. (that doesn't mean there isn't some reasonable consensus that can be reached, just that it's not easy/obvious) 

Edited by ABR-Glen
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4 hours ago, MichaelPal said:

Great. Quote an article literally just released and throw shade at Champcar. 
 

Either adapt or die. Your complaining is exhausting. 

The shade you speak of isn't my doing, and the info in there isn't new, merely organized differently.

 

Here's another article, this one from May:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/200tw-tire-test-valino-and-yokohama-take-favorites/

 

Rest your weary eyes and fingers; the next time you see a post by me, don't read it and for heaven's sake don't reply! You have that choice.  

Edited by mender
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6 hours ago, mender said:

The shade you speak of isn't my doing, and the info in there isn't new, merely organized differently.

 

Here's another article, this one from May:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/200tw-tire-test-valino-and-yokohama-take-favorites/

 

Rest your weary eyes and fingers; the next time you see a post by me, don't read it and for heaven's sake don't reply! You have that choice.  


I understand choice. 

You usually have great technical advice and knowledge sharing here. But offering organizational and rules advice for a racing series you no longer participate in falls on deaf ears a lot of the time and is frustrating. 

 

Back on topic: Good article. But why do I feel like waiting for GRM article results and adjusting tire rules every 1-2 years will yield that same complaints of rules stability. I personally prefer rules on changing tires vs banning certain tires. 
 

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Posted (edited)

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11 hours ago, mender said:

Here you go. Grassroots figured out which tires are autocross tires and which ones are endurance tires and even made a pretty chart:

 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/

 

It's never been that it can't be done, it's that someone in Champcar doesn't want it. But if they ever change their mind, the info is out there. :)

That sure is telling and in your face.  200 SuperFast TW tires, 200 endurance TW tires, 100 TW tires that they compare to 200TW tires and have the same exact ratings. WOW. 

Edited by MR2 Biohazard
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