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2021 Board of Directors Annual Meeting - Virtual


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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

Just saw the latest video.

 

Thanks for fixing the 3 row vs 2 row rad rule.   

Kinda fixed it with more free parts, not a fix to me as it just provides more speed creep and more dollars to spend.

 

To me it should have been stock or points.

But you are right it fixed the 3 row vs 2 row.

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5 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

cause everyone know that HP is the key to endurance racing success...

cause everybody know how to push the pedal on the right to the floor...

Edited by mender
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17 hours ago, 55mini said:

Kinda fixed it with more free parts, not a fix to me as it just provides more speed creep and more dollars to spend.

 

To me it should have been stock or points.

But you are right it fixed the 3 row vs 2 row.

Can you explain to me how a free alum radiator adds to speed creep?

 

For me on the MR2 a stock Radiator is $440 from Toyota, but they stopped making them. I have not overheating issues with stock. If I got alum, at $89 that I can find, I am good. Both do not overheat or have issues. 

 

I guess we could argue though, that since I saved so much money on my radiator I have money for extra entry fees long term, or I could spend more money on fast tires, well, maybe two tires, that do not last long. OK, not even then do I see speed creep.

 

We should start a seperate thread on the free items adding to speed creep, because I do not see it myself. I see them as saving me money. Brakes, I could stop just as good on stock, but the wilwoods give me big pads that last 3-4x as long. After one set of pads I am saving money long term. Same speed.

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1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

Free radiator...now more points available for speed parts.  Some cars will benefit more than others, but for sure some will benefit.  

I guess we need to look and find an example of someone who took points on a radiator instead of a speed part and if they get that free rad 10 points show me a true example of them putting a speed part on that makes a difference. I doubt we will really find any and if we do it might be a one off at best.

 

For most, it will save them money and the big picture it is a really good thing. For me, it saves me a lot of money and I know that is what most are doing it for. I am not against saving money, that is for sure.

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I guess we need to look and find an example of someone who took points on a radiator instead of a speed part and if they get that free rad 10 points show me a true example of them putting a speed part on that makes a difference. I doubt we will really find any and if we do it might be a one off at best.

 

 

I read this as... "Prove to me that someone is going to use a radiator point reduction to make their car faster. You can't. But even if  you can, it's probably just one. Therefore it doesn't matter".

 

I'm confused why you don't think this will happen. Either cars are below 500 points, and they can afford the points for a radiator, or, as you are saying, they are already at 500 points but are not taking an aluminum radiator because they are points. 

 

I'm not sure why you think it's so implausible that someone IS at 500 points, AND taking an aluminum radiator. And NOW, won't replace the points they will get back with a free radiator on something else.

 

This will make your head explode I'm sure. But I'm gonna save all the bucks I had to spend on stock radiators, buy a cheaper aluminum radiator, and use all my new funds on faster tires!!!!!

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Everything in life involves compromises.  Responses to latest radiator ruling:

  • More free parts, speed creep.  True
  • No longer have to buy expensive, non available stock radiator, saves me money.  True
  • Previous rule kept me from using my 3 core radiator I just bought based on previous ruling.  True

Some people are happy, some aren't.  We made a decision based on where we were at that moment in time, seemed to be the best compromise all considered.

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25 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

Everything in life involves compromises.  Responses to latest radiator ruling:

  • More free parts, speed creep.  True
  • No longer have to buy expensive, non available stock radiator, saves me money.  True
  • Previous rule kept me from using my 3 core radiator I just bought based on previous ruling.  True

Some people are happy, some aren't.  We made a decision based on where we were at that moment in time, seemed to be the best compromise all considered.

Agree, and everything will be ok.  

 

Now some of us sitting around the campfire want to poke at Troy a couple more times.  :)

 

Edited by JDChristianson
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5 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Agree, and everything will be ok.  

 

Now some of us sitting around the campfire want to poke at Troy a couple more times.  :)

 

Speaking of… When does he get to ask for free accusumps and oil coolers  again? 😛

Edited by jakks
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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I guess we need to look and find an example of someone who took points on a radiator instead of a speed part and if they get that free rad 10 points show me a true example of them putting a speed part on that makes a difference. I doubt we will really find any and if we do it might be a one off at best.

 

For most, it will save them money and the big picture it is a really good thing. For me, it saves me a lot of money and I know that is what most are doing it for. I am not against saving money, that is for sure.

Well lets take any car someone is building, and start adding up what they want to put on to make it fast and reliable.

 

Start at 350 points

Swap  100 

blah blah blah including a radiator  50points

Total   500

 

Team sitting around after first race "geez it be cool if we had an aero thingy...shush, those are ten points we can't take laps"

 

a Week later   TA DA  we get 10 points back and can put on the aero thingy

 

Its pretty basic math that even us simpletons from the Midwest can do, and its how we keep adding stuff to the car that has made it faster than it used to be.  

 

Troy its ok for you to want it to save money,  it also be ok for you to admit it allows teams to put more go fast stuff on their car.

 

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On 7/11/2021 at 7:11 PM, ABR-Glen said:

The 5 minutes is the other variable there, no good reason for it to be that long, people are fueling as fast as possible either way. Shorter min pit stop times would also reduce the importance of fuel capacity.

How about changing the maximum stint time to something that is not divisible by the number of hours in the race?

 

Example - in a 12 hour race, 2 hour max stint equals 5 stops, 6 stints.  Not much advantage in doing something different.  Ignore the 5 minutes in the pit lane for now.

 

However, if the max stint length was 1:55 you now can't do the whole race in 5 stops, you have to add one stop.  But you can do them at less prescribed times.  If the race goes FCY at 30 minutes in, do you gamble that you can do 1:55 stints for the rest of the race with no issues and pull the car in for one of your 6 stops?  Or gamble that there will be a FCY or other issue at some other point.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

Well lets take any car someone is building, and start adding up what they want to put on to make it fast and reliable.

 

Start at 350 points

Swap  100 

blah blah blah including a radiator  50points

Total   500

 

Team sitting around after first race "geez it be cool if we had an aero thingy...shush, those are ten points we can't take laps"

 

a Week later   TA DA  we get 10 points back and can put on the aero thingy

 

Its pretty basic math that even us simpletons from the Midwest can do, and its how we keep adding stuff to the car that has made it faster than it used to be.  

 

Troy its ok for you to want it to save money,  it also be ok for you to admit it allows teams to put more go fast stuff on their car.

 

I understand how the points work, but do not see it. Yes, in this made up scenario, sure, that person could throw a wing on their car and may possibly go faster, maybe. I just do not see that as reality though for almost all teams. I want to find someone with a real world example of a free radiator making their car faster. 

 

If at 500 points and they have an alum radiator and take 10 points and a lap, there must be a hella good reasons for it and I would bet is has nothing to do with performance and has to do with availability.  Though, again, this is a totally fake made up example. I have yet to see anyone do that.

 

If someone really wants to bitch and complain about speed creep, lets be real about it and see what actually makes speed creep and stop putting false ideas about it. If you have races for more than 10 minutes you will know what really makes speed creep and address the real issue. The free rad has nothing at all do with speed creep.

1 hour ago, jakks said:

Speaking of… When does he get to ask for free accusumps and oil coolers  again? 😛

Petition time next year, just like last year, just like the year before. hehe. I will continue the fight to get us to embrace saving cars and teams and enjoying the battle to the end.  Why the hate on me so much? I think accusumps save engines, which I think is a good thing as I want to see teams finish races. Whenever I see people say that they want points for accusumps or ban them I think that person must not need one and wants the competition to fail and break so they can win. Well, that is not me at all.  I want to race the best teams at the end of the race and have the battle. I have gone home early with blown engines enough to know how that affects a team and drivers, no one wants or should have that is a solution is easy to get at to fix it.  I have been told I am naive and stupid to think that way and winning is winning. Well that is me then.

 

2 hours ago, shutupracing said:

I read this as... "Prove to me that someone is going to use a radiator point reduction to make their car faster. You can't. But even if  you can, it's probably just one. Therefore it doesn't matter".

 

I'm confused why you don't think this will happen. Either cars are below 500 points, and they can afford the points for a radiator, or, as you are saying, they are already at 500 points but are not taking an aluminum radiator because they are points. 

 

I'm not sure why you think it's so implausible that someone IS at 500 points, AND taking an aluminum radiator. And NOW, won't replace the points they will get back with a free radiator on something else.

 

This will make your head explode I'm sure. But I'm gonna save all the bucks I had to spend on stock radiators, buy a cheaper aluminum radiator, and use all my new funds on faster tires!!!!!

I was going to say use the money I saved on tires, but it would only buy me one tire and that is going to do me any good, or anyone else. I think my point on the alum radiator is that we talk about hypotheticals and what if scenarios, but the reality is I do not see any teams taking laps for radiators. I do not see people using 10 points to do X that is really going to make cars really faster.

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4 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Any time from this afternoon until petitions are due for next year I suppose

 

No, he has certainly already re-submitted his boilerplate accusump / oil cooler petitions by now. 

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5 hours ago, enginerd said:

No, he has certainly already re-submitted his boilerplate accusump / oil cooler petitions by now. 

nope, not yet. I write them down, takes notes at races, ect. I save them all and review on the first of year and then submit. That is how I start my new year, with hope.  By now you should know the process.

Edited by MR2 Biohazard
turrable gremmer
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8 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 ...I do not see people using 10 points to do X that is really going to make cars really faster.

Not sure about other people but I do see myself taping off the front more with the extra cooling capacity I just gained.  Top end (and free downforce) here we come (track dependent of course!).  Oh...and if you want to stop speed creep...stop the swaps....but that ship sailed long ago.

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1 hour ago, TKRiggs said:

Not sure about other people but I do see myself taping off the front more with the extra cooling capacity I just gained.  Top end (and free downforce) here we come (track dependent of course!).  Oh...and if you want to stop speed creep...stop the swaps....but that ship sailed long ago.

If you have your rig sorted out that well, I doubt you'd have to worry about the few tenths that the tape would give you. :) 

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20 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I guess we need to look and find an example of someone who took points on a radiator instead of a speed part and if they get that free rad 10 points show me a true example of them putting a speed part on that makes a difference. I doubt we will really find any and if we do it might be a one off at best.

 

For most, it will save them money and the big picture it is a really good thing. For me, it saves me a lot of money and I know that is what most are doing it for. I am not against saving money, that is for sure.

It doesn't save you any money.  

 

It saves you points.

 

You were always allowed to run an aluminum radiator.  They just cost points.

 

Nobody changed the cost of aluminum radiators, they changed how many points they are.

 

10 points equals a splitter or wing.

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9 hours ago, TKRiggs said:

Not sure about other people but I do see myself taping off the front more with the extra cooling capacity I just gained.  Top end (and free downforce) here we come (track dependent of course!).  Oh...and if you want to stop speed creep...stop the swaps....but that ship sailed long ago.

I have to agree on the swap stuff, kinda blew my mind when I figured that part of our rules out! Lol

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It doesn't save you any money.  

 

It saves you points.

 

You were always allowed to run an aluminum radiator.  They just cost points.

 

Nobody changed the cost of aluminum radiators, they changed how many points they are.

 

10 points equals a splitter or wing.

Some are slow to learn I guess.

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As I've said before, and I'm sure I'll say it again....

 

When I started in chumpcar, we had an almost entirely stock 2nd gen rx7.  It was valued at 520 pts with the way the aiv rules were.  We finished 3rd in our first race.

 

Now, I have an airdam, splitter, rear wing, some suspension parts, coilovers,  an engine swap, a trans swap, and some other stuff that I can't remember.  I'm now below 500 pts.

 

The free stuff adds up over time.

 

Brakes, radiators, swap stuff, shifters, springs, lower point values for items, etc.  It all adds up over time.

 

Does that 10 to 15 seconds quicker a lap make the race more exciting?  Or does it just make the racing more expensive?

 

I understand that less maintenance costs means more entries.

 

Make the performance items cost more points and give the reliability stuff away for free.

 

We are giving the reliability stuff away for free, but not raising any performance values.

 

Champcar has already established that they / we will not reign in items that are too low in value.  Therefore more free stuff,  even if it is reliability items, just means more performance at this point.

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10 hours ago, TKRiggs said:

Oh...and if you want to stop speed creep...stop the swaps....but that ship sailed long ago.

If you were to call out specific swaps, I'd agree.  All swaps are not created equal some got special treatment via the fudge factor.   Some allow old low power cars to compete.  Some of the new cars allowed in at 500 or close to 500 points are pretty darn capable on the straights and corners, so you are not keeping pace with them with  100 or 120 wheel hp.   

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