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4 hours ago, ManhattanMcC said:

He means Spec Boxster or PCA/NASA SPB (also in SCCA T3)... I started with a Sonic hatch that was on its way to B-Spec so every time I read that it gave me agita... I think he's referring to the PCA derived 2650 SPB weight, although the 2905lbs used in the Stock/"Letter" Prepared Car classes is very telling as far as gauge of realistic expectations.

Yes sorry, I meant Spec Boxster. There are plenty of threads out there on people getting them down to 2400# without gas:
http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-racing-forum/64899-weight.html

And what what
enginerd said. Our weight reduction is open. ChampCars should be lighter than most anything.

Edited by Grant
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15 hours ago, the5 said:

Sahlens Have just about Maxed the Boxster in Champ. They run Motec ECU's, Full custom chassis harness, And Tape for Their Doors, Trunk and Hood, No rear bumper for weight/aero and thats just from what I can see. The Fuel cells in those cars are a $5-6k deal. I assume they Port the intake and heads as well. So they are a pretty good determination of what a Boxster will do in Maxed trim.

I have never actually seen a maxed out ChampCar, so I'd be interested to look at their cars if we've ever at the same race.

 

Still a bunch of nice parts =/= maxed out. Tuning, setup and weight reduction are usually more important. We run the stock ECU, and you can't get more power out of a NC with a Motec. Most teams are better off spending that money on practice and driver training.

They ran a 1:39.8 at Mid Ohio. I think we'd be under that, but maybe not enough under to offset their fuel advantage.

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Curious, what cost has gone up in Champcar builds? (Ignoring tires, not sure if it's a real problem).

 

With our NC we spend most money on radios, coolsystem, surgetank, etc. All non-VPI, non performance items.

 

For instance, with Miatas you can now use the $2000 Penske shocks vs the $1200 B8+eibach, so that is $800. Cams have been cheaper over the years so thats $500. I believe you can buy very expensive 2 piece rotors now, not sure what they cost.

 

Is it the various bits like that?

 

Most teams still run refreshed junkyard engines for years, not $10k every race rebuilds.

 

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35 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Curious, what cost has gone up in Champcar builds? (Ignoring tires, not sure if it's a real problem).

 

With our NC we spend most money on radios, coolsystem, surgetank, etc. All non-VPI, non performance items.

 

For instance, with Miatas you can now use the $2000 Penske shocks vs the $1200 B8+eibach, so that is $800. Cams have been cheaper over the years so thats $500. I believe you can buy very expensive 2 piece rotors now, not sure what they cost.

 

Is it the various bits like that?

 

Most teams still run refreshed junkyard engines for years, not $10k every race rebuilds.

 

 

Don't think its the individual piece parts per-se. I think its a continuum of:

 

1) The granularity of the strip process of the donor car (i.e. do you strip to unibody and replace every fastener coming back up? I did this with my e30, a non-trivial exercise...)

2) Replace/rework existing systems on the chassis. the only part of the oem fuel system on e30 is the tank, *everything* else is different. The brake system above the rotors is 100% different from OEM. It has coilovers with camber plates (to include the condor e30 specific rear adjusters for the TA's). Every bushing on the car is Delrin, and the guibo is the revshift one. I mean I hit everything.

3) Electrical: I threw everything away, and I mean everything. It has a motec PDM and AEM ECU, with multiple tunes. There were drivers for this: reliability and weight, in that order.

4) Motor. some can be made better reasonably, some can't. the first pass of mods i did on the M20 probably bought another ~15-20hp. meh. The next pass made it insane (but this was pricey, there's easily 10k in that motor at this point).

5) Optimization. You can make CF body panels very easily. Room temp pre-preg is cheap and the process is *dirt simple*. (I think the tape thing is ridiculous if that's actually what the boxster people are doing for body panels.). The panels is next on the list for the e30.

 

But even after all of that, there's prob at least another 18-24 months to fully develop the car as we are just now diving in for real after a year of it basically sitting (which is a criminal offense). This is where I agree with @Grant on key dimension: setup.

 

If you do all these things I mentioned above in list, then the investment is high. I'm into the e30 for easily 50k  at this point and I think when you look across the spectrum of CC teams there are lots of them at this investment level on their build, some winning, some not.

 

When I started the e30, I had a vision / idea of what it meant to build a race car. That vision/idea was really at odds with the CC rules. I went back and forth on whether or not to commit to the rule or just build what I really wanted to build. The deciding factor was when I was building the fuel system and CC changed the book like twice in a short space of time which flushed a bunch of hours of effort on my part in the garage. That was also a bad flashback on past life experiences with rules systems in another sport and I just bailed on CC and built what I wanted to at that point, reorienting on WRL. That event for me seems apropos other threads on BCCR, so to close out:

 

I've opined on the CC rules for a while. Straight-up I don't like them, too nit-picky. I think they are trying to please too many masters and when you have dealt with handicapping systems in competition you know none are perfect, and this one is now distorted in a really bad way (which ends badly). Reasonable people can disagree on the structure of handicapping systems, but one thing is for sure, you will never please everyone. The best you can do is to very, very clearly define the strategic objectives of the rule system and structure the rule-set appropriately. I think this is where the gap is currently in CC, at least i.m.h.o.

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50k?  Hollleeeee.  Shiiiittteeeee!

 

I'll pipe up here....

 

Troy is convincing me that champcar is not really any more expensive to run than it was before.

 

However, I would like to see a rules freeze for a few years and see what happens.  No more free stuff.  If we add something for reliability that's free, I suggest increasing the value of an item on the performance side.

 

An example would be... we now have free radiators, add 5 or 10 points to rear wings.

 

Free the oil pans...  5 or 10 points more for airdam.

 

T hat gets rid of my ONLY argument about free stuff.  

 

I would be happy, AND, we would be closer to free reliability items and more points for performance.

 

Whatcha think?

 

P.s. 50k for a champcar build is WAY out of line.

 

 

Also, sahlens....  they are a grassroots team and always have been.  Yes, they have some nice stuff.  However, go talk to them.  Look at their tires (probably not throwing new tires on as much as people might think) Ask questions.  They aren't throwing huge money around on a champcar weekend.  They already have the race team and the gear.  Let them use it.  We used to run right with them when they ran 2nd gen rx7s (and so did we).  Beat them as often as they beat us.  

 

Edit...  I have been informed that the sahlens cars may be using more tires (and the sticky ones) in a weekend, possibly doing more with the engines, and some other actions that they did not do in the past.  Ill be paying attention to see if they have jumped the shark...

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

50k?  Hollleeeee.  Shiiiittteeeee!

 

I'll pipe up here....

 

Troy is convincing me that champcar is not really any more expensive to run than it was before.

 

However, I would like to see a rules freeze for a few years and see what happens.  No more free stuff.  If we add something for reliability that's free, I suggest increasing the value of an item on the performance side.

 

An example would be... we now have free radiators, add 5 or 10 points to rear wings.

 

Free the oil pans...  5 or 10 points more for airdam.

 

T hat gets rid of my ONLY argument about free stuff.  

 

I would be happy, AND, we would be closer to free reliability items and more points for performance.

 

Whatcha think?

 

P.s. 50k for a champcar build is WAY out of line.

 

 

Also, sahlens....  they are a grassroots team and always have been.  Yes, they have some nice stuff.  However, go talk to them.  Look at their tires (probably not throwing new tires on as much as people might think) Ask questions.  They aren't throwing huge money around on a champcar weekend.  They already have the race team and the gear.  Let them use it.  We used to run right with them when they ran 2nd gen rx7s (and so did we).  Beat them as often as they beat us.  

 

 

His car is probably 9000pts, it's more of a highend GP1 build than a Chumpcar. I have seen it in real life, IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A CHAMPCAR :)

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

 

Don't think its the individual piece parts per-se. I think its a continuum of:

 

1) The granularity of the strip process of the donor car (i.e. do you strip to unibody and replace every fastener coming back up? I did this with my e30, a non-trivial exercise...)

2) Replace/rework existing systems on the chassis. the only part of the oem fuel system on e30 is the tank, *everything* else is different. The brake system above the rotors is 100% different from OEM. It has coilovers with camber plates (to include the condor e30 specific rear adjusters for the TA's). Every bushing on the car is Delrin, and the guibo is the revshift one. I mean I hit everything.

3) Electrical: I threw everything away, and I mean everything. It has a motec PDM and AEM ECU, with multiple tunes. There were drivers for this: reliability and weight, in that order.

4) Motor. some can be made better reasonably, some can't. the first pass of mods i did on the M20 probably bought another ~15-20hp. meh. The next pass made it insane (but this was pricey, there's easily 10k in that motor at this point).

5) Optimization. You can make CF body panels very easily. Room temp pre-preg is cheap and the process is *dirt simple*. (I think the tape thing is ridiculous if that's actually what the boxster people are doing for body panels.). The panels is next on the list for the e30.

 

But even after all of that, there's prob at least another 18-24 months to fully develop the car as we are just now diving in for real after a year of it basically sitting (which is a criminal offense). This is where I agree with @Grant on key dimension: setup.

 

If you do all these things I mentioned above in list, then the investment is high. I'm into the e30 for easily 50k  at this point and I think when you look across the spectrum of CC teams there are lots of them at this investment level on their build, some winning, some not.

 

When I started the e30, I had a vision / idea of what it meant to build a race car. That vision/idea was really at odds with the CC rules. I went back and forth on whether or not to commit to the rule or just build what I really wanted to build. The deciding factor was when I was building the fuel system and CC changed the book like twice in a short space of time which flushed a bunch of hours of effort on my part in the garage. That was also a bad flashback on past life experiences with rules systems in another sport and I just bailed on CC and built what I wanted to at that point, reorienting on WRL. That event for me seems apropos other threads on BCCR, so to close out:

 

I've opined on the CC rules for a while. Straight-up I don't like them, too nit-picky. I think they are trying to please too many masters and when you have dealt with handicapping systems in competition you know none are perfect, and this one is now distorted in a really bad way (which ends badly). Reasonable people can disagree on the structure of handicapping systems, but one thing is for sure, you will never please everyone. The best you can do is to very, very clearly define the strategic objectives of the rule system and structure the rule-set appropriately. I think this is where the gap is currently in CC, at least i.m.h.o.

 

 A lot of those things are nice to have, for instance the ECU/PDM is awesome but a cheaper system and relays could be used. Also the engine is obviously bonkers, a real custom built race engine. 

 

I don't think your car is a representative chumpcar :)

 

I mean even the fender flares are nicely painted, it's not a $9 rattle can job....

 

I think a champcar build should be $10k - $20k (that is you pay for the cage). Hard to build something safe for less (assuming you pay for cage).

 

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

It might be easy but there’s no provision for it within the rules

ya, or use S-Glass. but really at this point the cost diff between CF and S-Glass is trivial. kinda like cost diff between the H&R springs/Billies and my coil-overs for e30, which is to say close to 0....

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Just now, atxe30 said:

ya, or use S-Glass. but really at this point the cost diff between CF and S-Glass is trivial. kinda like cost diff between the H&R springs/Billies and my coil-overs for e30, which is to say close to 0....

It costs like 3 pts per square foot.  Good luck!

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45 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

 A lot of those things are nice to have, for instance the ECU/PDM is awesome but a cheaper system and relays could be used. Also the engine is obviously bonkers, a real custom built race engine. 

 

I don't think your car is a representative chumpcar :)

 

I mean even the fender flares are nicely painted, it's not a $9 rattle can job....

 

I think a champcar build should be $10k - $20k (that is you pay for the cage). Hard to build something safe for less (assuming you pay for cage).

 

 

 

 

i think you just made my point on my assertion re strategic statement of the rule system ;)

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It costs like 3 pts per square foot.  Good luck!

no disrespect, but i think you are too far down in the weeds. i'm not talking about the granular points, i'm trying to get to the practicality of the rule set.

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6 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

no disrespect, but i think you are too far down in the weeds. i'm not talking about the granular points, i'm trying to get to the practicality of the rule set.

None taken.

 

What is the point then?

 

I have been saying (for years) that champcar needs a clear 3 to 10 word mission statement that all rules are judged against.

 

My opinion is, and has always been, make reliability items free.  Make stuff that saves money free.  Make performance items coat MOAR points.

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10 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

None taken.

 

What is the point then?

 

I have been saying (for years) that champcar needs a clear 3 to 10 word mission statement that all rules are judged against.

 

My opinion is, and has always been, make reliability items free.  Make stuff that saves money free.  Make performance items coat MOAR points.

i could not agree with you more on the mission statement.

 

i do not think you can define the dimensions in the subsequent sentence in the structure of the current rule set in a way that doesn't lead you right back to where things are today. but that's just my opinion.

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3 hours ago, atxe30 said:

I've opined on the CC rules for a while. Straight-up I don't like them, too nit-picky.

I agree. They focus on things that don't affect speed and ignore two of the biggest factors that do: tires and weight.

 

WRL rules aren't perfect either though. An E30 is going to be competing against other, better chasses with the same weight / power. You can't relocate a suspension mounting point (a must on a strut car) without a significant penalty.

 

I hope they eventually get around to giving cars with poorer suspension geometry some help. ChampCar at least tacitly admits that yes, Miatas handle better than E30s.

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4 hours ago, atxe30 said:

do you know if they run the full spec B suspension setup (x the coilover package of course)?

I have not looked but I’m sure they are not using anything adjustable point cost would be high. They have wings and splitters probably every other mod is no points. The car has good suspension stock and brakes are good with many upgrades possible, lots of replacement struts and springs to improve the handling all with no points. Take out or remove everything you can to lighten the package. The car is a great starting point. Drivers are fast as well. New tires when you feel the need is nice too. If I could I would build myself a duplicate. 

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On 9/16/2021 at 1:21 PM, Chris Huggins said:

 

You are absolutely right.

 

In an ideal world the rule book would provide good equalization to disallow the advantages a team could purchase with a check book.  Unfortunately our current BCCR is not good in that regard.

 

The problem lies with a few select teams who don't have the respect for the sport and the other competitors to participate in a "spirit of the series" manner.

 

So Chris now this series has a spending limit ?   Anyone who spends more than you has no respect for you and everyone else ?    Not a very well thought out statement for a board member.

 

 

On 9/16/2021 at 1:21 PM, Chris Huggins said:

 

You are absolutely right.

 

In an ideal world the rule book would provide good equalization to disallow the advantages a team could purchase with a check book.  Unfortunately our current BCCR is not good in that regard.

 

The problem lies with a few select teams who don't have the respect for the sport and the other competitors to participate in a "spirit of the series" manner.

 

So Chris now this series has a spending limit ?   Anyone who spends more than you has no respect for you and everyone else ?    Not a very well thought out statement for a board member.

 

 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
51 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

 

 

 

Reading comprehension fail.  

 

Let me try again another way to help you.

 

 

In an amateur series, which professes to let people come race without "obscene" expense, the rules should prevent teams from gaining advantage from spending. 

 

Currently our rule book doesn't do a good job of that.

 

Therefore we currently rely on people respecting the "spirit of the series".

 

Each team's interpretation of that is different.  If you used to run an IMSA team, spending $50k in a weekend is racing without obscene expense.

 

Unfortunately, for about 90% of champcar's customers, the weekend cost is way less, so $50k is an "obscene" expense.

 

Just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean my statement wasn't well thought out.


I was elected as a board member with the platform that I would speak up for the lower budget teams.  I want to prevent champcar from becoming WRL or AER with how much those series cost to be competitive.

 

Yes, champcar currently offers the opportunity to go racing with your friends and family without obscene expense.  However, I want to ensure we continue to offer the opportunity for teams to actually compete without spending their way onto the podium.  Should it be easy? No.  But with effort and experience, every team should have the opportunity, and the second spending becomes a requirement to compete for the win, we have failed as a series.

 

If you feel thats wrong, so be it, but I won't back down from speaking my mind. I owe it to the members who voted for me with the understanding that I would speak up when necessary.

 

So yes, there are a few teams who I feel don't respect the spirit of the series, and who would be a better fit for WRL or AER.  We don't want to lose customers, and it's not personal, but by those teams participating it provides an image that is not in line with the perception we should be outlining as a series.  There is an opportunity cost there, and if perspective customers (or current members) see those cars racing and succeeding, they may choose to race with an alternative series (or not race at all) as a result. 

 

There are tons of teams who spend more than me.  Ask the guys who race with me, my rates are reasonable and my cars are "built, not bought".  We race on the same set of tires all year - budget is definitely a concern.  So no, every team who spends more than me is not who I am talking about.

 

 

So, in summary, you are a troll hiding behind your keyboard.  Good Day.

 

 

Screen Shot 2021-09-17 at 8.26.00 PM.png

Edited by Chris Huggins
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2 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

 

Reading comprehension fail.  

 

Let me try again another way to help you.

 

 

In an amateur series, which professes to let people come race without "obscene" expense, the rules should prevent teams from gaining advantage from spending. 

 

Currently our rule book doesn't do a good job of that.

 

Therefore we currently rely on people respecting the "spirit of the series".

 

Each team's interpretation of that is different.  If you used to run an IMSA team, spending $50k in a weekend is racing without obscene expense.

 

Unfortunately, for about 90% of champcar's customers, the weekend cost is way less, so $50k is an "obscene" expense.

 

Just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean my statement wasn't well thought out.


I was elected as a board member with the platform that I would speak up for the lower budget teams.  I want to prevent champcar from becoming WRL or AER with how much those series cost to be competitive.

 

Yes, champcar currently offers the opportunity to go racing with your friends and family without obscene expense.  However, I want to ensure we continue to offer the opportunity for teams to actually compete without spending their way onto the podium.  Should it be easy? No.  But with effort and experience, every team should have the opportunity, and the second spending becomes a requirement to compete for the win, we have failed as a series.

 

If you feel thats wrong, so be it, but I won't back down from speaking my mind. I owe it to the members who voted for me with the understanding that I would speak up when necessary.

 

So yes, there are a few teams who I feel don't respect the spirit of the series, and who would be a better fit for WRL or AER.  We don't want to lose customers, and it's not personal, but by those teams participating it provides an image that is not in line with the perception we should be outlining as a series.  There is an opportunity cost there, and if perspective customers (or current members) see those cars racing and succeeding, they may choose to race with an alternative series (or not race at all) as a result. 

 

There are tons of teams who spend more than me.  Ask the guys who race with me, my rates are reasonable and my cars are "built, not bought".  We race on the same set of tires all year - budget is definitely a concern.  So no, every team who spends more than me is not who I am talking about.

 

 

So, in summary, you are a troll hiding behind your keyboard.  Good Day.

 

 

Screen Shot 2021-09-17 at 8.26.00 PM.png

 

Game.  Set.  Match.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
19 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

If it is, some of the rules need to be evaluated!

 

Hassles and huge rulebook come to mind...

 

Haha.


changing my window net 3 times this year when it has always been OK in the past is hardly a hassle…….

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