EngineerFreely Posted June 22, 2021 Report Share Posted June 22, 2021 Good evening, I am looking to revive my friends old SC400 into a champ car but am a little confused about the VPI scoring on cars that came only with an automatic from factory. It seems there is a bit penalty for swapping it. For instance... SC300 is 500 points (assuming manual) SC300 is 425 points (assuming auto) SC400 is 495 points on paper but they only come automatic so its 420 points. The 495 on paper is never achieved since it always has the -75 automatic rule. If I manual swap it (sc300 trans/adapter) then its 520 points. (495+25) So where I don't understand the logic is that an automatic SC300 and SC400 are 5 points different (which makes sense since they are pretty close in power and the same car elsewhere). But on the manual side, the SC400 is 20 points more than the SC300. Wouldn't it make sense, since the cars are so close in stock power, to have the SC300 auto less than the SC400 auto (possibly 410 and 420) and have the manual SC300 worth less than a manual swapped SC400? Despite these cars being nearly the same, it rewards SC400 automatics and SC300 manuals and punishes SC300 automatics and SC400 swapped manuals? I think the point balance is a little off here. Anyone have any insight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted June 22, 2021 Report Share Posted June 22, 2021 Yes, it would be great to have the SC300 start with less points. You should talk to Matt Cawood, he has run the SC400 manual combination. I can message you with his email address if you want it, I don't think he comes on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerFreely Posted June 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: Yes, it would be great to have the SC300 start with less points. You should talk to Matt Cawood, he has run the SC400 manual combination. I can message you with his email address if you want it, I don't think he comes on here. Please do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins Posted June 22, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted June 22, 2021 I see where your logic is coming from, but its unlikely to get implemented. Primarily, the complexity of independently evaluating each car for manual vs auto is more of a task than we have personnel to put on it. Unfortunately for the automatic racer's of the group, you are an extreme minority, and for now the -75 across the board has demonstrated to be a pretty good balance. Sure, there are definitely quirks like you have pointed out, but to my knowledge there are no teams currently actively campaigning either an auto Sc300 or an auto Sc400. The early sc400 auto box is garbage, and it gets a lower point value based on that compared to the later sc400 with the better gearbox. I have no insight on how the value became 495 instead of 500 like the sc300 The sc300 is unlikely to be reduced anytime soon. There are members of the BOD and TAC who have stakes in sc300 cars, and any change to that point value would drive the naysayers over the edge with conspiracy theories and accusations of favoritism. My recommendation to you is to build the car with a manual, but use a better manual than the sc300 box. Those suck and are expensive. Buy a CD009 or a T56 or something better so you only have to do it once. 2 laps is a do-able margin to overcome with a well executed race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerFreely Posted June 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) On 6/22/2021 at 8:19 AM, Chris Huggins said: I see where your logic is coming from, but its unlikely to get implemented. Primarily, the complexity of independently evaluating each car for manual vs auto is more of a task than we have personnel to put on it. Unfortunately for the automatic racer's of the group, you are an extreme minority, and for now the -75 across the board has demonstrated to be a pretty good balance. Sure, there are definitely quirks like you have pointed out, but to my knowledge there are no teams currently actively campaigning either an auto Sc300 or an auto Sc400. The early sc400 auto box is garbage, and it gets a lower point value based on that compared to the later sc400 with the better gearbox. I have no insight on how the value became 495 instead of 500 like the sc300 The sc300 is unlikely to be reduced anytime soon. There are members of the BOD and TAC who have stakes in sc300 cars, and any change to that point value would drive the naysayers over the edge with conspiracy theories and accusations of favoritism. My recommendation to you is to build the car with a manual, but use a better manual than the sc300 box. Those suck and are expensive. Buy a CD009 or a T56 or something better so you only have to do it once. 2 laps is a do-able margin to overcome with a well executed race. This all makes sense and I understand why not to change the SC300 point standings. I guess a rule about cars that only came automatic could be swapped to another OEM style transmission with approval or something. It really makes the SC400 a better built automatic car than a manual car. Actually, there is a lot keeping the SC400 from being a good contender with a 495 point start. Edited June 24, 2021 by EngineerFreely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 aren't trans swaps 25 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 On 6/21/2021 at 9:42 PM, EngineerFreely said: since the cars are so close in stock power, +25hp and +50 torque isn't terribly close. As fast as the SC300's have been it would seem a manual SC400 would be a step up in speed. 520 points means just 2 penalty laps so give it a roll. If both cars were 500 points a manual conversion SC400 would have 3 penalty laps. Perhaps that is the reason for the 5 point difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 Bill Strong tried to "grey area" this by claiming that he started with an automatic car (-75 points) then swapping to manual (+25 points) to get a free 50 point advantage from nothing more than paperwork. My understanding is the SC400 is already considered an automatic and does not get the 75 point discount. Further, converting it to a manual is 75 points , as opposed to just changing one manual transmission for another, which is 25 points. SC400 swap to better automatic transmission: 495 points + 25 points swap = 520 points SC400 conversion to manual from automatic: 495 points + 75 points group price for the components involved= 570 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, mender said: My understanding is the SC400 is already considered an automatic and does not get the 75 point discount. If that change was made somewhere along the line it invalidates a number of the VPI suggestions I sent TAC as requested. Got a link for this? It has always been said auto only cars take that into account when setting the VPI. After the Strong rules interpretation it was clarified the -75 only applied if raced with an auto. Edited June 24, 2021 by Bandit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Bandit said: If that change was made somewhere along the line it invalidates a number of the VPI suggestions I sent TAC as requested. Got a link for this? It has always been said auto only cars take that into account when setting the VPI. After the Strong rules interpretation it was clarified the -75 only applied if raced with an auto. The way this works on cars like the SC400 is this: The car has a value of 495 points. If you run it with an automatic (the only way it came) you get the 75 point reduction. Not many will do this because the auto trans (A341E) in the models that are 495 points sucks and would be a serious disadvantage, but I digress. If you do a manual trans swap, you take the 25 point hit. That puts the car at 520 points. The 495 point car is a car that could never be raced at the point value it is assessed at, for reasons stated above. Edited June 24, 2021 by Rodger Coan-Burningham 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 39 minutes ago, mender said: Bill Strong tried to "grey area" this by claiming that he started with an automatic car (-75 points) then swapping to manual (+25 points) to get a free 50 point advantage from nothing more than paperwork. My understanding is the SC400 is already considered an automatic and does not get the 75 point discount. Further, converting it to a manual is 75 points , as opposed to just changing one manual transmission for another, which is 25 points. SC400 swap to better automatic transmission: 495 points + 25 points swap = 520 points SC400 conversion to manual from automatic: 495 points + 75 points group price for the components involved= 570 points. what am I missing? SC300 is 425 points (assuming auto) + 25 for a trans swap = 450. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuaTTro Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 11 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: what am I missing? SC300 is 425 points (assuming auto) + 25 for a trans swap = 450. I think what you're missing is the "assuming auto" part. I believe the correct interpretation is "SC300 is 425 points (if raced with OEM auto trans)..." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: what am I missing? SC300 is 425 points (assuming auto) + 25 for a trans swap = 450. Since the car came with a manual, a swap would start at 500 points. If trans swap, would be 525. If raced as an auto, it would be 425. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 What would be interesting is if someone brought out a 98+ SC400 and ran it with the A640E 5 speed auto. 290hp/300ft-lb torque vvti 1UZ engine. Starts at 550 points, run it as an auto at 475. Maybe I'll do that..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 11 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: Since the car came with a manual, a swap would start at 500 points. If trans swap, would be 525. If raced as an auto, it would be 425. what if you use a different manual trans? I believe when we went to a manual we took a 25 points hit. 84 Trans Am. The new car 88 Formula was a factory 5 speed so no points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 17 minutes ago, QuaTTro said: I think what you're missing is the "assuming auto" part. I believe the correct interpretation is "SC300 is 425 points (if raced with OEM auto trans)..." • Transmission / Transaxle swap: 25pts for any transmission... so it should be 450 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 51 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: • Transmission / Transaxle swap: 25pts for any transmission... so it should be 450 points. You only get the 75 points for an automatic if you are running an automatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, TiredBirds said: what am I missing? SC300 is 425 points (assuming auto) + 25 for a trans swap = 450. You're using Bill Strong math. You only get the -75 points if raced with the OE automatic. The SC300 had a manual as an option, but the same applies to any car that came factory with no manual option. With the auto only SC400 if you stab a manual in it is +25 on the VPI. If you run it with the OE auto it is -75 on the VPI. Edited June 24, 2021 by Bandit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Bandit said: You're using Bill Strong math. You only get the -75 points if raced with the OE automatic. The SC300 had a manual as an option, but the same applies to any car that came factory with no manual option. If you stab a manual in it is +25 on the VPI. If you run it with the OE auto it is -75 on the VPI. Just a quick note... I believe you could run it with a non oe automatic for a 50 pt reduction from base vpi..... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said: Just a quick note... I believe you could run it with a non oe automatic for a 50 pt reduction from base vpi..... Yes. I didn't want to add more options confusing the basic point. If the car is already manual and you put in a different manual it's +25. If the car is available auto only from the factory and you put in a manual it's +25. If the car is an auto and you run the OE trans it is -75. If you put a better auto trans in it is -75 for racing an auto and +25 for auto trans swap, so a net of -50. eta-Clarified further with italics Edited June 24, 2021 by Bandit 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Bandit said: Yes. I didn't want to add more options confusing the basic point. If the car is already manual and you put in a different manual it's +25. If the car is an auto and you put in a manual it's +25. If the car is an auto and you run the OE trans it is -75. If you put a better auto trans in it is -75 for racing an auto and +25 for auto trans swap, so a net of -50. I don't get the logic. We were hit w/ 25 points form going from auto to Manual. We could have used any manual, T-10 comes to mind. Why can't this guy use a Non-SC gear box and take 25 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: What would be interesting is if someone brought out a 98+ SC400 and ran it with the A640E 5 speed auto. 290hp/300ft-lb torque vvti 1UZ engine. Starts at 550 points, run it as an auto at 475. Maybe I'll do that..... 20pts for a monster trans cooler, 5pts leftover for misc. (shark fin?) 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: I don't get the logic. We were hit w/ 25 points form going from auto to Manual. We could have used any manual, T-10 comes to mind. Why can't this guy use a Non-SC gear box and take 25 points? If you put in the OE manual for the 3rd gen Camaro/Firebird you would/should not have been charged 25 points. A T5 would be zero points swapped in place of the auto your car came with as the T5 was available from the factory. A M21 would be 25 points as it was never available in a 3rd gen. Otherwise, I don't see where the confusion is. What do you mean "Why can't this guy use a Non-SC gear box and take 25 points?" He can. If it's a non SC auto it's VPI 495-75+25=445. If it's a manual it's 495+25=520. You only get the -75 for an automatic if you RACE an automatic. eta-I clarified further the post your quoted above. Edited June 24, 2021 by Bandit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: The 495 point car is a car that could never be raced at the point value it is assessed at, for reasons stated above. Which begs the question of why it is assessed that way. At some point, it would be nice to have a rule book that is internally consistent and can be used to build a legal car. Edited June 24, 2021 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 24, 2021 Report Share Posted June 24, 2021 4 hours ago, Bandit said: If that change was made somewhere along the line it invalidates a number of the VPI suggestions I sent TAC as requested. Got a link for this? It has always been said auto only cars take that into account when setting the VPI. After the Strong rules interpretation it was clarified the -75 only applied if raced with an auto. That was my understanding when Bill tried it. I haven't bothered keeping current lately so I'm probably wrong now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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