Organization transparency

[petawawarace]

Question for the BOD.  

 

With all of the recent troubles with rules and petitions, there seems to be a lack of transparency to the general membership.  Specifically on how decisions are made, and why. 

 

I’ve been involved in several not for profit organizations. A common characteristic of them is the requirement to meticulously record meetings and all activities of the organization. All meeting minutes, any voting results (specific details like how each BOD member vote) etc. These are always shared with the public or the membership at minimum.  I’ve noticed that Champcar does not do this.  I have asked for these specific documents and been told that many are not required to be released according to the bylaws.  

 

A quick search shows that by law in California, all of these documents are to be made available to the membership of requested.  Champcar is incorporated in California so I think this should apply.

 

My question is why is Champcar not doing this?   Am I missing something?  

 

Reference: 

 

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=CORP&sectionNum=6333

[wvumtnbkr]

38 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Question for the BOD.  

 

With all of the recent troubles with rules and petitions....

Ummmm...  what troubles with rules and petitions?

 

As far as I know,  the process worked as intended.

 

Did I like the outcome on everything, no!   However, I think everything is working as intended.

 

 

All of that being said, I would like to see how the BOD members vote on topics.

[petawawarace]

Things like the Rad rule.   
 

The petition had nothing to do with how many rows a rad has.  How did they come up with the 3 row limit? Out of thin air? Was TAC involved? 
There have been several of these over the last year or so.  Perhaps there’s something to be learned.  
 

The tire stuff too.  How did each BOD member vote? What were the petition feedback numbers from members? Was there a large number of members that agreed something needs to be done and the BOD decided not to listen? 
 

The other big one is the decisions on banning certain teams from competing because of poor driving.  I do see some merit in keeping that quiet, but this is a member run organization. That information needs to be available to the members.  

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

10 hours ago, petawawarace said:

Things like the Rad rule.   
 

The petition had nothing to do with how many rows a rad has.  How did they come up with the 3 row limit? Out of thin air? Was TAC involved? 
There have been several of these over the last year or so.  Perhaps there’s something to be learned.  
 

The tire stuff too.  How did each BOD member vote? What were the petition feedback numbers from members? Was there a large number of members that agreed something needs to be done and the BOD decided not to listen? 
 

The other big one is the decisions on banning certain teams from competing because of poor driving.  I do see some merit in keeping that quiet, but this is a member run organization. That information needs to be available to the members.  

 

Why don't you try talking to people that made those decisions?  With about 99% confidence I would bet anyone that was involved in any of those decisions would be willing to talk about what they voted for and why.  Looking at minutes that were taken by someone that was in the conversation at the same time will be incomplete and possibly misleading.  You can call me anytime (well when I am not busy in my day job) and we can talk through any item you want to.  I was not on the board when the items you mention were decided, but going forward I'll be glad to discuss.

 

Edit:  Also, when we talk I may learn something or get something out of it that might change my mind.  I had a discussion at CMP with Ed about tires.  We don't agree on the path forward, but it was a really good conversation.  I have an opinion on all of this stuff, but it's not for me to show up on the board and try to impose my will.  If the membership wants something, and it makes sense for the business and it promotes fair racing then let's do it, even if I don't like it personally for some reason. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Rodger Coan-Burningham

[petawawarace]

23 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

 

Why don't you try talking to people that made those decisions?  With about 99% confidence I would bet anyone that was involved in any of those decisions would be willing to talk about what they voted for and why.  Looking at minutes that were taken by someone that was in the conversation at the same time will be incomplete and possibly misleading.  You can call me anytime (well when I am not busy in my day job) and we can talk through any item you want to.  I was not on the board when the items you mention were decided, but going forward I'll be glad to discuss.

 

Edit:  Also, when we talk I may learn something or get something out of it that might change my mind.  I had a discussion at CMP with Ed about tires.  We don't agree on the path forward, but it was a really good conversation.  I have an opinion on all of this stuff, but it's not for me to show up on the board and try to impose my will.  If the membership wants something, and it makes sense for the business and it promotes fair racing then let's do it, even if I don't like it personally for some reason. 

Thanks for the reply.   
 

I have tried talking to several on an issue or two, and really didn’t get anywhere.   Also, if it was all in some minutes, it would be easy for everyone to see.  
 

There appears to be decisions being made behind the scenes that the membership is not privy to.  In a private business, that’s 100% fine.  But when it’s a not for profit, membership funded and run organization that is not ok.  In fact it’s technically illegal. 
 

Do you see any drawbacks to allowing the membership access to all of this information?
 

 

 

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

16 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

There appears to be decisions being made behind the scenes that the membership is not privy to.  In a private business, that’s 100% fine.  But when it’s a not for profit, membership funded and run organization that is not ok.  In fact it’s technically illegal.

 

Which ones?  I think you are being overly dramatic.  You should stop doing that.

 

17 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

 

Do you see any drawbacks to allowing the membership access to all of this information?

 

None.

[Chris Huggins]

Jez.  This got pretty serial real quick like.

 

1. Meeting Minutes are recorded.  The meeting minutes for the annual BOD meeting were published and the meeting was done in real time on live stream.

 

2. Minutes are kept for every meeting, per the requirement.  I have not seen any written requests for additional minutes, but I don't get Champcar mail - the CEO does. I'm sure if he got a certified letter requesting information per legal requirement, the law would be followed.  Champcar doesn't need legal trouble - and a lawsuit or similar could and likely would end the fun for all of us.

If you want to start making "illegal" accusations, please back up and start thinking seriously.   That stuff won't make you popular among your peers.

 

3. Individual voting results for the petitions are being tabulated per member request.  Next year I will be SURE to make the Yes and No for each member accurate as we go.  This year, We just recorded Yes or No overall, as had been the previous practice.  We were all in a meeting discussing, took a vote of ayes or nays and the overall result was recorded.  Seeing Y, N, or N/A for each petition really won't give you the full picture, but its not secret info.  The hours of discussion on each petition were not recorded, as we don't have a stenographer on staff. 

 

4. We have fully transitioned from a "benevolent dictator" to a "group of advisors", and part of that is we need a quorum to make decisions, so it cant happen instantly.  None of the BOD does this to put food on the table.  We all have day jobs, families, etc.  The board generally meets once a month for an hour to discuss the goings on and provide guidance for the club.  The things we do beyond that are as volunteers to support the club - if we stopped, then the club would have to add employees or contractors to get the same work done, adding cost for everyone.   No-one wants that, so some patience on these things is needed. 

 

 

5. Talked to who?  Didn't get anywhere, or didn't get where you wanted to go?

In the air of public transparency, here's our conversation re. the rad rule.. Not really sure where you wanted it to go, but I feel I clearly addressed your question.

 

 

The Radiator Rule and Rain Light Rule were discussed at the July meeting and are pending final wording (which I used this AM's Champcar time to write this post instead of doing) from me to be sent to everyone for approval.

 

The tire rules were hotly debated by everyone on the board.  That was pretty well discussed in the meeting I thought.  

 

Also covered in the meeting is that only 51 members submitted responses/opinions on the petitions.  25% of those were from the same team.  How much stock should the BOD put into 1.15% of the club?  Were the responses reviewed and considered - YES.  Were Emails, Personal interactions, phone calls, etc reviewed and considered - YES.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Chris Huggins
fixed image

[Snorman]

15 hours ago, petawawarace said:

Question for the BOD.  

 

With all of the recent troubles with rules and petitions, there seems to be a lack of transparency to the general membership.  Specifically on how decisions are made, and why. 

 

I’ve been involved in several not for profit organizations. A common characteristic of them is the requirement to meticulously record meetings and all activities of the organization. All meeting minutes, any voting results (specific details like how each BOD member vote) etc. These are always shared with the public or the membership at minimum.  I’ve noticed that Champcar does not do this.  I have asked for these specific documents and been told that many are not required to be released according to the bylaws.  

 

A quick search shows that by law in California, all of these documents are to be made available to the membership of requested.  Champcar is incorporated in California so I think this should apply.

 

My question is why is Champcar not doing this?   Am I missing something?  

 

Reference: 

 

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=CORP&sectionNum=6333

Have you considered speaking with an attorney? Because it seems like you're taking this far more seriously that I think I've ever seen anybody take it. 

Geez. 

 

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

1 minute ago, Snorman said:

Have you considered speaking with an attorney? Because it seems like you're taking this far more seriously that I think I've ever seen anybody take it. 

Geez. 

 

 

We've got a guy in Alabama that can help!

 

[Snorman]

55 minutes ago, Chris Huggins said:

Also covered in the meeting is that only 51 members submitted responses/opinions on the petitions.  25% of those were from the same team.  How much stock should the BOD put into 1.15% of the club?  Were the responses reviewed and considered - YES.  Were Emails, Personal interactions, phone calls, etc reviewed and considered - YES.

At the risk of going off topic in this ridiculous conversation...

I think the petition process needs to be seriously reconsidered. The fact that there are 100 petitions, many of the them duplicates and over 100 pages for people to read through and comment upon is likely why there is only 1.15% of the club commenting. These should be culled down to a reasonable number, OR, we should limit the number of petitions that a member can file. I 100% know you submit like 50 petitions a year  but I think this needs to be reigned in to make this process more friendly for the members in general. Then maybe you'll get more than 51 members out of thousands participating. 

Further, it's pretty well documented that...quite frankly...member votes don't mean dick. I've seen the BOD completely disregard member feedback on wildly popular petitions. My own opinion...start making the member votes for a petition actually mean something. Use the member vote as an additional BOD vote. 

I'll submit petitions for these two for 2022 review. 

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

I think a lot of the petitions should have another avenue to be addressed since they are more clarifications.  Also, multiple petitions were submitted on the same thing because the board had said in previous years the petition had to be approved/nixed simply as it was written and not by the merit of the requested change.  We need to clean this up, make it very simple so people don't look at it and say ah hell that's too much and I have other stuff to do.

[Jer]

I can address the rad rule.  We've tried to implement one for a couple of years now.  This is Champcar, we are running a lot of older cars and in some cases there is no longer a stock rad available OR it is outrageously priced.  One of our series goals is affordable racing.  There are usually 2 core aluminum ones on eBay for $100 for most marquees, but we were charging 10 points for one.  With the idea of alleviating the costs of new OEM rads (that still have plastic ends on them), we made 2 core or single core free and only wanted to charge for triple core or racing rads.  That brought a lot of negative feedback from not only the teams that had triple core rads and were paying 10 points (we increased it to 30), but also from tech who didn't think they could easily tell the difference between 2 core and 3 core.  Hell I couldn't tell from looking at one.  So we decided to punt on it and make them all free.  Every car needs a rad, unlike oil coolers, trans coolers, etc.  If you want to know who all voted and how, we had 5 members of the board on the call (two couldn't make it) so we had a quorum.  Four voted for free rads (Tiffany, Chris, Rodger and I) and one voted to leave the rule the way its been (Tyler).  Seats up for election this Fall are Bruce, Mike and me.  Feel free to vote for or against us.  Or run against us.  

[Jer]

11 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I think a lot of the petitions should have another avenue to be addressed since they are more clarifications.  Also, multiple petitions were submitted on the same thing because the board had said in previous years the petition had to be approved/nixed simply as it was written and not by the merit of the requested change.  We need to clean this up, make it very simple so people don't look at it and say ah hell that's too much and I have other stuff to do.

To add to this, we tossed out rules that had five solutions in the past and told members to submit separate proposals for each option.  That led to a plethora of petitions but it was what we asked for.  Also, many members submitted similar petitions because who knows what is submitted and what is not.  Each one is considered, although we grouped the for discussion in the essence of time.  We had three separate meetings (other than the monthly meetings) just to discuss petitions.  It's time consuming and some of us got bloodied during the fight, but we came out with conclusions on all.  I'm not sure how to streamline the process, suggestions welcomed.  One problem area was tires.  How to regulate how many are used, which are allowed, etc.  The Board simply could not agree and each solution had potentially serious hidden consequences.  The closest we got was to restrict stops to one tire or charge 1 extra minute of time for each additional tire changed.  That narrowly got voted down, 4-3.  I tried but could get one more vote for it.  Hope all this helps.  

Edited July 9, 2021 by Jer

[petawawarace]

I did not mean to imply that anything being done was illegal. Sorry if that’s what your reading into.  I was told that the minutes are not required per the bylaws. I was simply pointing out that while the bylaws may not require it, it is infact something that should be available. I’m not getting into any legal proceedings. I know that would be ridiculous.    
 

I think that having that would clarify things for members that do care about this sort of stuff very easily.  In fact, if the minutes are properly done, it should make any of the questions answered easier than individuals asking each BOD member etc.  This could be a big time and effort savings for everyone.  
 

My hunch is that the BOD may not have been aware that it is a requirement of this type of organization.  My hope is that they may realize it and provide it to the members.  If they don’t, I’m not going to go lose any sleep over it.  I genuinely thought it would improve communication and transparency, an improve the organization as a whole and that’s why I asked the question.  

Edited July 9, 2021 by petawawarace

[wvumtnbkr]

Again, the BOD yearly meeting is streamed live, and the minutes are available.

 

The everyday discussions are not recorded, nor do they need to be.

[Snorman]

2 hours ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I think a lot of the petitions should have another avenue to be addressed since they are more clarifications.  Also, multiple petitions were submitted on the same thing because the board had said in previous years the petition had to be approved/nixed simply as it was written and not by the merit of the requested change.  We need to clean this up, make it very simple so people don't look at it and say ah hell that's too much and I have other stuff to do.

How long does it take most people to read and digest the 100+ petitions that are submitted? Quite honestly, it's ridiculous. Two years ago, somebody very vocal on the forum who never actually built and raced a car in the series submitted ~35 petitions. Some people submit the same damn petitions every year hoping to get a different result. 

I get the people who are putting effort into well thought out and articulated petitions and appreciate it. But a very large portion of them...just ugh...

[petawawarace]

4 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

Jez.  This got pretty serial real quick like.

 

1. Meeting Minutes are recorded.  The meeting minutes for the annual BOD meeting were published and the meeting was done in real time on live stream.

 

2. Minutes are kept for every meeting, per the requirement.  I have not seen any written requests for additional minutes, but I don't get Champcar mail - the CEO does. I'm sure if he got a certified letter requesting information per legal requirement, the law would be followed.  Champcar doesn't need legal trouble - and a lawsuit or similar could and likely would end the fun for all of us.

If you want to start making "illegal" accusations, please back up and start thinking seriously.   That stuff won't make you popular among your peers.

 

3. Individual voting results for the petitions are being tabulated per member request.  Next year I will be SURE to make the Yes and No for each member accurate as we go.  This year, We just recorded Yes or No overall, as had been the previous practice.  We were all in a meeting discussing, took a vote of ayes or nays and the overall result was recorded.  Seeing Y, N, or N/A for each petition really won't give you the full picture, but its not secret info.  The hours of discussion on each petition were not recorded, as we don't have a stenographer on staff. 

 

4. We have fully transitioned from a "benevolent dictator" to a "group of advisors", and part of that is we need a quorum to make decisions, so it cant happen instantly.  None of the BOD does this to put food on the table.  We all have day jobs, families, etc.  The board generally meets once a month for an hour to discuss the goings on and provide guidance for the club.  The things we do beyond that are as volunteers to support the club - if we stopped, then the club would have to add employees or contractors to get the same work done, adding cost for everyone.   No-one wants that, so some patience on these things is needed. 

 

 

5. Talked to who?  Didn't get anywhere, or didn't get where you wanted to go?

In the air of public transparency, here's our conversation re. the rad rule.. Not really sure where you wanted it to go, but I feel I clearly addressed your question.

 

 

The Radiator Rule and Rain Light Rule were discussed at the July meeting and are pending final wording (which I used this AM's Champcar time to write this post instead of doing) from me to be sent to everyone for approval.

 

The tire rules were hotly debated by everyone on the board.  That was pretty well discussed in the meeting I thought.  

 

Also covered in the meeting is that only 51 members submitted responses/opinions on the petitions.  25% of those were from the same team.  How much stock should the BOD put into 1.15% of the club?  Were the responses reviewed and considered - YES.  Were Emails, Personal interactions, phone calls, etc reviewed and considered - YES.

 

 

 

Again, I apologize for bringing the “legality” into it.  I simply wanted to show that it’s required for this type of organization.  
 

Chris, you did answer my question on the rad stuff.  My concern is how did such a poor decision on a rule get made twice?  The metric chosen (3 row) was not in the petition.  Where did it come from?  Was it just an off the cuff suggestion thrown out and voted on in the heat of the moment without much thought?  Was the TAC asked for their opinion on the 3 row metric?  
The minutes of meetings should show how this went down.  This is a re-occurring issue and perhaps figuring out the process can avoid more of it.  
Last years Rad rule (and subsequent flip back), The flywheel rule (and subsequent flip-flop several ways) and potentially the non rule on tires are examples of issues with the decision making process.  
 

The fact that only 51 members voted needs to be looked at in context.  Champcar membership is unique.  Brushing the votes off as not being a representation of the group is concerning.  I’d bet close to 75% of the membership simply pays their fee just so they can race.  They don’t really give a poop what happens with the rules at all.  But they do care about close,fair,affordable racing. If that goes away, so do they.  If the other 25% do care, many simply don’t have the time to spend on the petition process.  Plus I’m sure there are some that feel it won’t change anything, so they don’t bother.  
 

For perspective, only 6% of the membership voted in the BOD elections.  How much weight should be put on that?   
 

If 45 of the 51 votes were in favour of limiting tires and the BOD went against that, there are issues.  

 

Just because the vote turnout was low, doesn’t mean it isn’t important.  It needs to be treated as a representation of the whole membership.  

[mcoppola]

I was going to (and still should) write a petition to limit the number of petitions per year to about the first 40 or so received.  

And also place a limit on how many per member. 
I’ve seen first hand how much time petitions occupy. 
I also still feel that it was a move by the “benevolent dictator” to complicate things for management by allowing the racers to suggest the rules. This was a Huge departure from how he ran things. I believe he wanted to leave total chaos that could possibly fail. 

[Snorman]

1 minute ago, mcoppola said:

I was going to (and still should) write a petition to limit the number of petitions per year to about the first 40 or so received.  

And also place a limit on how many per member. 
I’ve seen first hand how much time petitions occupy. 
I also still feel that it was a move by the “benevolent dictator” to complicate things for management by allowing the racers to suggest the rules. This was a Huge departure from how he ran things. I believe he wanted to leave total chaos that could possibly fail. 

I'll be happy to write that petition if you don't...but how about this...we BOTH don't write a petition since it would be completely redundant and speak to exactly the issue we both have with the process. 

 

[Chris Huggins]

My suggestion is to make the petitions public as soon as they are submitted.  Then everyone can rant and rave about them before the BOD even has to see them.   Also would eliminate duplicates (sometimes even from the same person...)

[LuckyKid]

The BoD is elected by roughly the same % of members as those submitting petitions and commenting.  If petitions and comments are less relevant because of the lack of participation what does that say about the BoD?

If a lawsuit would end CCES, then this is a risk that should be taken seriously and mitigated.  All it takes is one pissed off member.  

I get that there are limited resources and this is part time.  I applaud the previous efforts to leverage members (Like Chris in the Technical Writer role) and I think efforts like this should be used more to increase overall bandwidth and assist the BoD in making decisions. 

Each member calling each BoD member to get their version of events sounds like a not so great way of communicating.   I very much like the forum posts from BoD members explaining their stances on different topics.   

[Jer]

Roy, we are fully insured, including business practices.  Just an FYI.  

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

2 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

Each member calling each BoD member to get their version of events sounds like a not so great way of communicating. 

 

Probably not, but reading some written notes by participants in a meeting isn't so great either.  But that's not saying it shouldn't be available, it should.  I don't think there is a BOD member that is against being as open as possible given the constraints of time and resources.  But, a lot of this stuff can get complex, earlier reference to my discussion with Ed on tires is an example.  We talked for like 10 or 15 minutes just about tires and a potential tire rule.  And I wasn't even in on the BOD discussion.

 

It's all about time.  It takes time to write, organize, publish notes.  It takes time to meet.  It takes time to come on here and discuss things.  It takes time to get on farcebook and discuss things.  Not complaining, but time is just something there is a finite amount of, where does the membership want people running the show to focus their time?  It's like a lot of other things in life, how good is good enough?

[JDChristianson]

21 hours ago, Chris Huggins said:

My suggestion is to make the petitions public as soon as they are submitted.  Then everyone can rant and rave about them before the BOD even has to see them.   Also would eliminate duplicates (sometimes even from the same person...)

Chris, you seem to be getting a bit jaded with the idea that members have opinions on things.  I hope its just that I'm missing your attempt to be light hearted and keep things in proper perspective.    

 

That being said I think you are onto a process that might be helpful.    I think petitions should be filtered by the TAC before the BOD even sees them.  There might even be a case for a couple more volunteer committees to help out.  (maybe a committee focused on the safety issues, keeping TAC focused on the cars)   Petitions could be sent to the appropriate committee and reviewed.  Some would be denied and a note sent back to the member telling them why, some would go on to the BOD with a recommendation to implement.  Delegate Delegate  Their are members that are willing to help.   

 

Food for thought

[Timothy G. Elliott]

Another thing to consider is as team owner builder, verses just a driver for my team, I am vested heavily in these decisions though my driver's are not as much, therefore I am on here regularly and the only one from my team who would be. I think the vocal minority is highly important to the decision making process.