Murray Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) Just a new guy looking through the rules and various setups, and one that caught my eye was a 7th generation (03-07) Accord V6, 6 speed manual. Very similar to the successful Altima 3.5 manual... Just that I am more of a Honda lover at heart. Seems like it would be fairly easy and cheap to source a car and build, generally reliable, easy to source parts locally, and fairly cheap to run. Stock it's about 3200#, 240hp with a nice wide curve, fuel efficient, 6 speed manual, and like most Hondas a solid FWD chassis (double wishbone front, 5 link rear), 17 gallon tank stock. Starts at 425 points. Was thinking the free engine stuff, non-adjustable suspension, wing+splitter, LSD. For right around 500 points. Does anyone on here run one? If so any tips or gotchas? Or anyone else have any general thoughts on the car for Champ racing in C? Edited July 9, 2021 by Murray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted July 9, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 There have been a few J series V6 Hondas run in ChampCar. I don't know of any major issues with them, and your logic and upgrade list looks pretty sound. In general this should be a very competitive build, probably more on the bigger tracks than the small club tracks. I don't think there are any "gotchas", but there may be some tricks or tips specific to this chassis. I say go for it, I think it would be a fun build. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 There are a couple of cool build a of this generation accord on GRM. Not champcar builds, but autocross and tracks builds. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/the-traccord-2003-honda-accord-coupe/136498/page1/ https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/the-v6-6-speed-sedan-traccord/157644/page1/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADVNTURR Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 Ztec is running a 95 Accord coupe and is extremely competitive in B(?) class; last year I believe they were the overall winner at Nelson Ledges for the Saturday race. Not sure if anyone from their team is on the forums, but they'd be good folks to talk to probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytipover Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 I've had my eye on this chassis. I have two teenagers that are just about to start driving and will need cars, so I would buy them in bulk too. I was thinking K24 4cyl for economy and simplicity, but not until @enginerdquits blowing up K20s though 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted July 9, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 16 minutes ago, ADVNTURR said: Ztec is running a 95 Accord coupe and is extremely competitive in B(?) class; last year I believe they were the overall winner at Nelson Ledges for the Saturday race. Not sure if anyone from their team is on the forums, but they'd be good folks to talk to probably. They run an H22 in that accord, not a V6. 14 minutes ago, tommytipover said: I've had my eye on this chassis. I have two teenagers that are just about to start driving and will need cars, so I would buy them in bulk too. I was thinking K24 4cyl for economy and simplicity, but not until @enginerdquits blowing up K20s though K24s are just fine. The problem is not inherent to K24s, just inherent to Enginerd. Once Mopar 4 Never starts running again I'm sure they will have much success, and the Money Shift K20 has been running very well too. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) I run an 05 J30. It is competitive. A few hints: Shock and spring options are poor. I had to be creative. Traction control needs to be completely disabled. Turning off doesn't fully work and will cook the rear brakes. I pulled the ABS. That caused the car to be too lock up prone. I then went full manual. Problem solved but smaller drivers don't like the brake effort. You'll want to run a LSD from a TL type S. 25 points. Otherwise most drivers will roast the inside tire on most turns. Enough front camber is hard to get. Roll center is poor. Ideally you need a large rear sway bar. I tried stiff rear springs but the back end was "skating". Fast setup but it would try to kill you from time to time. Big bar made it fast and safe. Lots of weight savings will get you down to about 2600lbs no driver or fuel with a beefy cage. Fuel tank takes fuel well for 15 gallons. Then it is slow. Listed at 17.1 gallons, but it will take 18.5 over several minutes of fill time. I went to a fuel cell this year. Keep the power steering. Edited July 9, 2021 by veris 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimS Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 A friend who co drove with us has an Acura RL with a J series engine. Car has been fast at times. He had issues with OEM ECU and related security modules. Car has big power though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 The RL has a J35 with 60hp on the J30A4/A5. The J30 has good power, but the Nissan J35 and some of the V8s will walk it. Honda J35 is a very good match for those motors, but not Champcar legal. Good option for Luckydog or AER. I have one in my garage for such circumstances. The accord has an immobilizer that must be matched to the ECU and key. I haven't had issues with it yet. If you switch to a flashpro you'll need to have the immobilizer matched to the new ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 53 minutes ago, veris said: Honda J35 is a very good match for those motors, but not Champcar legal. Yes it is legal in a car on the list at 520 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) Roger, you of course are correct; the TL Type S has the 286hp J35 for 520 points. The motor is legal in the series. I should have been more specific an 03 to 07 accord with that motor swapped is not class legal. It is EC at 2628 points. The TL is also a good option at 520 points. It is very similar to the Nissan VQ35 but only has a 17.1 gallon tank vs 20. It does come out of the box with beefier sway bars, 4 piston brakes, and a LSD. Edited July 12, 2021 by veris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted July 9, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 Now you've got Rodger drooling. He’s chomping at the bit to do this build. Keeps saying 520 is too high. But he suffers from being on the TAC and now BoD - and we just can’t let him build a car that with his driving prowess, will come out and kick everyone’s butts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimS Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, veris said: The RL has a J35 with 60hp on the J30A4/A5. The J30 has good power, but the Nissan J35 and some of the V8s will walk it. Honda J35 is a very good match for those motors, but not Champcar legal. Good option for Luckydog or AER. I have one in my garage for such circumstances. The accord has an immobilizer that must be matched to the ECU and key. I haven't had issues with it yet. If you switch to a flashpro you'll need to have the immobilizer matched to the new ECU. sorry it was CL not RL. I’m Not a Honda/Acura pro. Do know it’s. J series. Immobilizer was likely problem Edited July 9, 2021 by TimS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Posted July 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) @wvumtnbkr and @veris Thanks for all the information! Super helpful, and gives me more information to sift through for sure. @veris Yup I figured it might take some custom spring options to make this work. I was hoping to avoid the rear bar just for points reasons, but maybe I have no choice and would either have to pay some minor penalty laps and/or go without aero for some tracks. My intention was to go with FlashPro. I haven't looked too closely is there no way to disable the traction control with that? I did just find a (non-Helms) copy of the Accord service manual online, and went through the VSA section a bit. Based on the (albiet somewhat limited) information there I would assume that if you killed the gyro (yaw), and/or accelerometer (lateral acceleration), and/or steering angle sensor inputs to the VSA unit it should disable the VSA functionality, while keeping the ABS/EBD functionality. I'll attach the pinout of the VSA to this reply. For the LSD, it didn't seem to clear to me from the rule book, but does it need to actually be an LSD from a VPI car or can I just pick up some cheapy aftermarket unit? Not that it matters much just curious. Yea in general I wouldn't expect to get out drag raced by too many cars out there. Ultimately this car setup should be good for 10 pounds per horsepower or better. Like you said maybe the VQ35 Altima, possibly a modified SBC/LT1 car or something could beat it, but I would probably put my money on the Accord for overall twisties prowess. How close to 2 hours did you get on the stock tank? @Rodger Coan-Burningham Of note, I've also thought about the TL... even possibly an auto TL to offer some options for aero/suspension... But ultimately not convinced that setup (essentially the same car ) is worth the extra ~75points over the J30 + LSD. Putting even more power into the setup is only going to kill its ability to go 2 hours, and Honda's automatics never really instilled much faith with me. The other option worth noting is the TSX with the K24A2 (P.S. Get the 06+ and thank me later). It is a variant of the same platform and starts 25 points less at 400. However as good as the K24 is, it's just not going to compete with the J30 on power, so the extra 25 points (and a few extra pounds) seems well worth it there... Seems to me the J30A4/A5 accord is the sweet spot for this particular platform (in this series). Edited July 9, 2021 by Murray 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) I had hoped the same for the rear bar. 20 points there is painful. If you make it work let me know... I switched to the flash pro after pulling out all the ABS, traction control, and sway control. I've been told pulling all the sensor off works too. Turning off didn't "fully" work. For the LSD go with the OE TL type S. It can be installed in the OE transmission or get yourself a TL transmission. CL works in a pinch but has complications so just pull its LSD and install in it your OE case. Fuel time depends on the track. I got ~1 hr 50 minutes at Road America which tends to be fuel heavy. Having raced a couple Nissan VQ35s, they definitely out pull the J30. Specifically out of the hole. Another 40+ftlbs of torque really helps right out of the corner. For outright pace the nissan VQ35 with its power and tank size is the right car. It is the new SC300. IMO it should be the same number of points as the TL type S. ie same hp with 3 gallons more fuel vs lsd. Both should be around 500 points. That is a different discussion.... If the TL type S had a larger fuel tank or was 500 points I would lean toward it. At 520 I don't think it makes up the 2 laps vs a well prepped Accord. It will also be fuel limited at more tracks. Edited July 12, 2021 by veris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 7 hours ago, Andrew D Johnson said: The problem is not inherent to K24s, just inherent to Enginerd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKRiggs Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 I assume Nissan J35... means VQ35? Having been around both Hondas and Nissans quite a bit...my opinion (similar to Veris) is that vq35s will have the outright pace....but Hondas are far superior when it comes to handling (at least out of the box). Hondas also have much better manual transmissions..again in my opinion. So I guess the best case would be a Honda platform with a VQ35 somehow mounted to a Honda transmission. HA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, TKRiggs said: I assume Nissan J35... means VQ35? Having been around both Hondas and Nissans quite a bit...my opinion (similar to Veris) is that vq35s will have the outright pace....but Hondas are far superior when it comes to handling (at least out of the box). Hondas also have much better manual transmissions..again in my opinion. So I guess the best case would be a Honda platform with a VQ35 somehow mounted to a Honda transmission. HA! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_J_engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKRiggs Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 I was referring to Veris posts mentioning Nissan J35s. I assume he meant Nissan VQ35s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Posted July 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 (edited) Thanks again to all (particularly @veris) for all the information. This is super helpful! I'm actually somewhat surprised that people say the VQ35 Altima is *that* much faster than the Accord. Judging from intake/exhaust/tune dynos online it doesn't suggest there is much difference. Even if you look at the overall curve. But ultimately I believe you guys as it's first hand experience. THe more I look at this tho. The accord being 425 points and Altima at 490 makes me think the Accord is definitely the right choice. Just not enough options with 10 usable points for the Altima. Edited July 11, 2021 by Murray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 7/9/2021 at 7:01 PM, TKRiggs said: I was referring to Veris posts mentioning Nissan J35s. I assume he meant Nissan VQ35s. I did mean Nissan VQ35. The J35 is a good match for the VQ35. The J30 lack the torque of the other two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veris Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) On 7/10/2021 at 2:13 PM, Murray said: Thanks again to all (particularly @veris) for all the information. This is super helpful! I'm actually somewhat surprised that people say the VQ35 Altima is *that* much faster than the Accord. Judging from intake/exhaust/tune dynos online it doesn't suggest there is much difference. Even if you look at the overall curve. But ultimately I believe you guys as it's first hand experience. THe more I look at this tho. The accord being 425 points and Altima at 490 makes me think the Accord is definitely the right choice. Just not enough options with 10 usable points for the Altima. The VQ35 has about 20hp but 40ftlbs (or 20% more torque). The Nissan also has 3 more gallons of fuel. Both are a significant advantage on the J30 Accord. The TL type S motor is match for the VQ35, but it'll be seriously fuel limited at a large track. That all said the J30 Accord can definitely be very competitive. I built one for a reason. Just don't expect to out drag a VQ35 Altima down a straight. The VQ35 isn't that "much faster" then the Accord, but in my experience it is faster on high speed tracks. Torque is king. Edited July 12, 2021 by veris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 7/9/2021 at 12:41 AM, Murray said: Very similar to the successful Altima 3.5 manual. Successful you say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Snorman said: Successful you say? Didn't that car win a few races and podium like 5 or so times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: Didn't that car win a few races and podium like 5 or so times? It was probably just running the sticky tires. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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