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How does the club want to determine when a car's VPI gets reviewed?


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22 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Something something engines not blowing up something something...

 

Tis a joke.  Lolz.

 

However, I am always confused when I see the yellow car, not orange.

You forgot about the oil filter not being tight???????   🙂

 

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11 hours ago, Grant said:

Do they usually single out a particular car or team though? Rulesets like NASA, GLTC or WRL can't even do this.

 

They do through indirect rule changes. For example the series could mandate a roof, windshield, and some of the other inner structure you removed. Of course you could put them back in, but that would take time and impact your speed in the near term (work if nothing else, and some weight). In a practical sense as one of the few or only remaining cars that run well without these parts a rule like that would be about as singular as they get. 

 

I have usually seen these as a ban or allowance to do x thing in only y way.... rules built in a specific enough way you might as well have a name attached. 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Bandit said:

The Cobra was mentioned as an example earlier in the thread. Then it was pointed out it got it's VPI raised anyway.

From what we've been told by a few primary sources, the Cobra VPI was raised unilaterally and it was not voted on by the BOD. 

In the end, the increase was then reduced. In the interim, we ended up spending money to recover the speed we would have lost by removing parts from the car. 

What's been killing us lately is broken transmissions...we just broke another one last week. On the first lap at testing. 🙁

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4 minutes ago, Snorman said:

What's been killing us lately is broken transmissions...we just broke another one last week. On the first lap at testing.

Ouch. Better testing than during a race at least. I'm not up on Fords, but I assume those still had T5's? Real crapshoot with those.

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1 hour ago, Grant said:

 

Oof that brings back some bad memories...

 

So I've talked it over with my co-driver, and we've committed to run WRL next year. If we do any Champ races it won't be in my car. We were very heavily leaning in this direction before all this started, pending some results from our testing at Road Atlanta next weekend. WRL was the original goal for the car, it was just complicated / delayed by some of their rules changes (requiring a windshield).

Well this just sucks and is sad. We just lost a team due to all this to WRL who are great guys, who have raced with Champcar for years and years who built a car to the rules. UGGGGG

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1 hour ago, Bandit said:

All I want to know is how the beta VPI calculator spits out 485 for a car with a 12.7 gallon gas tank.

 

I had to chuckle when Grant said he was in fuel conserve mode, in the rain, trying to make 2 hours. That's pretty bad.

If it spits out a 485 I would like to see if for the rest of the field. I do wonder how it calculates not going two hours.

 

 

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I truly believe Grant could take almost any car off the VPI, build it, maximizing it to the rules, put all the best equipment on it including the fastest tires, add great drivers and make the VPI look wrong.  Hats off to you, Grant.  I hope you still race with us when you can. 

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26 minutes ago, Bandit said:

Ouch. Better testing than during a race at least. I'm not up on Fords, but I assume those still had T5's? Real crapshoot with those.

Yep. We've been through a number of T5s. But there is really no excuse for the failures we've had other than to look to the shop who is doing our rebuilds. 

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2 hours ago, Grant said:

WRL was the original goal for the car, it was just complicated / delayed by some of their rules changes (requiring a windshield).

 

54 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Well this just sucks and is sad. We just lost a team due to all this to WRL who are great guys, who have raced with Champcar for years and years who built a car to the rules. UGGGGG

How?  Grant stated that WRL was the plan all along- 

but just twist stuff to make a point I guess...

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1 minute ago, chip said:

 

How?  Grant stated that WRL was the plan all along- 

but just twist stuff to make a point I guess...

My understanding is that he was going to race both series and was planning on racing WRL, but did not like certain things about WRL so was leaning towards CC and is racing CC. Now he is only WRL.

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I'm building an NC now to race next year and although these NC threads have been educational, they are a little unnerving.  

 

Before I get too deep into the build and parts, do we have any idea when updated VPI's and/or the BCCR will be released for next year?  I finally have the money to build this car but I can't afford to waste it.

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5 minutes ago, chip said:

How?  Grant stated that WRL was the plan all along- 

I also read ( I think) that they intend to make the car "a lot faster"   sure sounds like they need WRL to get to the raw speed they really want.  That's great,  you don't build a Spec Miata if you want to race and P1 or GT1 speeds.

 

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2 minutes ago, snowman said:

I'm building an NC now to race next year and although these NC threads have been educational, they are a little unnerving.  

 

Before I get too deep into the build and parts, do we have any idea when updated VPI's and/or the BCCR will be released for next year?  I finally have the money to build this car but I can't afford to waste it.

Just put the cage and safety stuff in the car, plus any Zero Point modifications like intake, ECU, lowering springs and shocks.  Come to a race to work out the kinks in the car and likely place high if the car is reliable.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, snowman said:

I'm building an NC now to race next year and although these NC threads have been educational, they are a little unnerving.  

 

Before I get too deep into the build and parts, do we have any idea when updated VPI's and/or the BCCR will be released for next year?  I finally have the money to build this car but I can't afford to waste it.

If you have not taken apart the NC I would say wait. You might see a lot of Miata NC's for sale here soon and can get one that is already done. Same point issue might be there though, but there is always EC.

Edited by MR2 Biohazard
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26 minutes ago, snowman said:

I'm building an NC now to race next year and although these NC threads have been educational, they are a little unnerving.  

 

Before I get too deep into the build and parts, do we have any idea when updated VPI's and/or the BCCR will be released for next year?  I finally have the money to build this car but I can't afford to waste it.

Should be in early Sept.  

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I'm not interested in EC.  I like the idea of competing against 40 cars, not turning laps that don't count in my opinion.  

 

The car is gutted and everything I didn't need was sold off or trashed.  I'm about to have a cage built, so I'm already knee deep in it and not turning back.  Just a matter of where do I go from here.  I want to go ChampCar, so hopefully it works out.

 

Thanks @Jer.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, snowman said:

I'm not interested in EC.  I like the idea of competing against 40 cars, not turning laps that don't count in my opinion.  

 

The car is gutted and everything I didn't need was sold off or trashed.  I'm about to have a cage built, so I'm already knee deep in it and not turning back.  Just a matter of where do I go from here.  I want to go ChampCar, so hopefully it works out.

 

Thanks @Jer.

 

 

I feel your pain also. I am 95% done.

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13 minutes ago, snowman said:

I'm not interested in EC.  I like the idea of competing against 40 cars, not turning laps that don't count in my opinion.  

 

The car is gutted and everything I didn't need was sold off or trashed.  I'm about to have a cage built, so I'm already knee deep in it and not turning back.  Just a matter of where do I go from here.  I want to go ChampCar, so hopefully it works out.

 

Thanks @Jer.

 

 

This is where I was when the SC300 went from 400-->500pts.  No discussion, no process, (that I was ever privy to) just a quick judgement from the CEO.  

 

Those are not the same times now. Since that time the organization has added a Technical Advisory Committee, identified members on the Board who would help oversee BCCR, Swaps formulas, Petition Process and Board approved VPI determinations. Unfortunately what we are seeing here play out on the forums is those new entities determining how best to implement better practices.

 

As much as Troy/Jer think a change in VPI will alienate teams, not making adjustments for an overdog could likely create an equal exodus amongst the organization.  That being said the more variables we allow will only complicate these scenarios and a team that does all the homework could in fact create an overdog from a car that isn't exactly one(i am talking SC300 here...hint, hint) as the NC could very well be.

 

I would hate to see any team leave Champcar due to a VPI change or situation where they believe that cant compete, but its a slippery slope we seem to wrestle with every year on at least 1 car.  So obviously as an organization we still have some work to do on getting it right but @snowman the process is getting better.

 

John

The guy who races with Chris and Troy...

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8 minutes ago, Hurljohn said:

This is where I was when the SC300 went from 400-->500pts.  No discussion, no process, (that I was ever privy to) just a quick judgement from the CEO.  

 

Those are not the same times now. Since that time the organization has added a Technical Advisory Committee, identified members on the Board who would help oversee BCCR, Swaps formulas, Petition Process and Board approved VPI determinations. Unfortunately what we are seeing here play out on the forums is those new entities determining how best to implement better practices.

 

As much as Troy/Jer think a change in VPI will alienate teams, not making adjustments for an overdog could likely create an equal exodus amongst the organization.  That being said the more variables we allow will only complicate these scenarios and a team that does all the homework could in fact create an overdog from a car that isn't exactly one(i am talking SC300 here...hint, hint) as the NC could very well be.

 

I would hate to see any team leave Champcar due to a VPI change or situation where they believe that cant compete, but its a slippery slope we seem to wrestle with every year on at least 1 car.  So obviously as an organization we still have some work to do on getting it right but @snowman the process is getting better.

 

John

The guy who races with Chris and Troy...

It will be interesting to see if the NC is an overdog without Grants car.  There is absolutely zero evidence it is without Grant's most recent results.  My stance has been that I need to see more, not that it's not an overdog.  It might be but there's not nearly enough evidence of that to date to convince me it's true.  

 

I feel bad about what happened to the SC300.  It was likely an overreaction and perhaps the TAC needs to open a review on that particular car.  

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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

It will be interesting to see if the NC is an overdog without Grants car.  There is absolutely zero evidence it is without Grant's most recent results.  My stance has been that I need to see more, not that it's not an overdog.  It might be but there's not nearly enough evidence of that to date to convince me it's true.  

 

 

On the other hand; how much evidence is required?

 

What if six or seven teams create overdog's using the NC.

 

But now the chassis is more established with more entries. Isn't it harder to reign in at that point?

 

Just curious as to how one would determine when there is sufficient evidence.

A secondary question is does a certain car require more than one team to be successful? History seems to indicate no.

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15 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

 

On the other hand; how much evidence is required?

 

What if six or seven teams create overdog's using the NC.

 

But now the chassis is more established with more entries. Isn't it harder to reign in at that point?

 

Just curious as to how one would determine when there is sufficient evidence.

A secondary question is does a certain car require more than one team to be successful? History seems to indicate no.

I answered this question pages ago.  

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You're right @Hurljohn.  I saw some of the shenanigans when I first started following ChampCar, and I agree its moved in the right direction.  Lots of good people, running the club and the members, and that's why I'm trying to get back.  I miss the comradery between teams at endurance races.  

 

From my point of view though, it seems harsh to punish a platform based on one teams performance.  Now, I'm admittedly bias in this situation as I'm trying to build an NC.  But I've seen several platforms get attacked because one team did well....at least on the forums (I don't know what happens behind the curtain).  I didn't think it was fair to those teams when it happened either though.  I've always been of the mentality that I need to improve my car/skill if I got beat instead of rules lawyering/lobbying...whatever you wanna call it.

 

Thanks for the info everyone.  I'm gonna go back to the sidelines for now and just watch.

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