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How does the club want to determine when a car's VPI gets reviewed?


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Is there an official established process to determine the VPI? Like a spreadsheet with some "fudge" factor in it?

 

Not sure I follow just because a car wins their VPI should be higher, then the E30 should be 600pts. Confused :)

 

End of September we will know the fate of the NC?

  • Next Years BCCR published: September 1st
  • VPI Q3 and Board seat nominations due: September 30

 

I assume "VPI Q3" means the VPI for 2022? So roughly a 3 months heads up?

 

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To be clear, a review of the vpi (what this thread is about) is significantly different than raising the vpi.

 

In other words, nobody is saying that a review will definitely cause an increase in vpi.

 

With that in mind, yes, 1 teams performance CAN and perhaps SHOULD trigger a REVIEW.

 

However, the review should dive deep into the specific build and balance variables with others that are running that vehicle, as well as compare the hard details (fuel, hp, etc...) to other competitive vehicles established in Champcar.

 

I would suggest that MOST reviews will result in zero changes.

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1 hour ago, shutupracing said:

Well I read all your responses and didn't see an answer to my question.

 

Guess I'm not reading between the right lines.

Ok I’ll bite.  An overdog has not only the significantly faster lap times but also the fuel to win races. To date we only have one race where this model was 2+ seconds ahead of the field. It has had other fastest laps but not much more than the field and only in a couple of races.  We have plenty of races, in fact many races, where one car beats the field by two seconds in fast lap. That’s not enough to be an overdog.    
 

Since this car was given a 500 point value and then reduced to 400, I would like to see at least a few races where it demonstrates overdog status before increasing the base. Then I would vote for a point increase.  But not after just one dominant performance.  Make sense? 

Edited by Jer
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8 minutes ago, chip said:

I would like to know why it was reduced $100- what are the reasons behind that VPI reduction?

unknown, the TAC did it in 2019.  But if you look at the NC-specific thread, there appear to be clues there.  

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28 minutes ago, Jer said:

Ok I’ll bite.  An overdog has not only the significantly faster lap times but also the fuel to win races. To date we only have one race where this model was 2+ seconds ahead of the field. It has had other fastest laps but not much more than the field and only in a couple of races.  We have plenty of races, in fact many races, where one car beats the field by two seconds in fast lap. That’s not enough to be an overdog.    
 

Since this car was given a 500 point value and then reduced to 400, I would like to see at least a few races where it demonstrates overdog status before increasing the base. Then I would vote for a point increase.  But not after just one dominant performance.  Make sense? 

Almost 3 seconds faster at cmp Saturday.  Almost 3 seconds faster at CMP Sunday.

 

Fastest lap at VIR n (barely).

Fastest lap by 1 sec VIR n Sunday.

 

Fastest lap at NCM Saturday (barely) 

Fastest lap at NCM Sunday (1 second).

 

6 races entered.  6 fastest laps.

 

 

Please stop confusing reasoning to REVIEW a vpi and reason to increase a vpi.

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19 hours ago, Jer said:

-no BOD should bring up a car for review.  The CEO can do that, tech can do that and members can do that through petition.  Again, the optics are bad on that which is why I've never initiated a review of a car.  Neither have most or all the BOD members until now.  Of course none of them were full time on the TAC as Chris and Rodger both are.

 

While I agree with the sentiment, where does it stop?  If @Chris Huggins can't request a review, what about @chip?

 

Heck, if I wanted to game the system, $50 and an email address could get me a membership with any name I want and have them lobby for my nefarious schemes...

 

In reality though, if the club leadership are also participants, then the best we can hope for is transparency.  Ugly as it is, this thread has helped.

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15 hours ago, Jer said:

 

The Board votes right now are Chris at 460 on the NC, Tyler at either no increase or 425 depending on which way he leans, Tiff at 425, me at no increase until I see an overdog, Bruce at 450, Rodger hasn't voted yet unless I missed it and Mike Chisek who almost never even attends meetings and likely won't vote.  So I have no idea where we are at.  

 

@wvumtnbkr

 

Think this is what Jer is talking about

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20 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Almost 3 seconds faster at cmp Saturday.  Almost 3 seconds faster at CMP Sunday.

 

Fastest lap at VIR n (barely).

Fastest lap by 1 sec VIR n Sunday.

 

Fastest lap at NCM Saturday (barely) 

Fastest lap at NCM Sunday (1 second).

 

6 races entered.  6 fastest laps.

 

 

Please stop confusing reasoning to REVIEW a vpi and reason to increase a vpi.

Ok thanks for stating it all AGAIN.  The barelies don't really cut it.  Every race there is a fastest car, sometimes barely and sometimes by more.  So in my my we have ONE RACE where it appears to be an overdog.  I personally need more, because I can point to countless races where other cars have beat the field by seconds.  To me it's early for an increase as an overdog.  Can we put one or two more races in the books before we adjust it?  Not that it matters, the Board is leaning towards an increase now.  

 

At Autobahn, a Corvette was 2.4 seconds better than the field on Sunday. On Saturday it was 3 full seconds faster than the field.  It got a 1st and a 2nd.  Crickets.  What's different?   That car has been fast in many races.  Just an example as to why we shouldn't overreact to one race of overdog status.  There are potentially a lot of factors, including tires vs competitors, who else showed up to the race, weather, course type, etc.  That's why you wait and see a pattern.  We do not have one yet.  

Edited by Jer
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5 minutes ago, Jer said:

Ok thanks for stating it all AGAIN.  The barelies don't really cut it.  Every race thereis a fastest car, sometimes barely and sometimes by more.  So in my my we have ONE RACE where it appears to be an overdog.  I personally need more, because I can point to countless races where other cars have beat the beat by seconds.  To me it's early for an increase as an overdog.  Can we put one or two more races in the books before we adjust it?  Not that it matters, the Board is leaning towards an increase now.  

 

At Autobahn, a Camaro was 2.4 seconds better than the field on Sunday. On Saturday it was 3 full seconds faster than the field.  It got a 1st and a 2nd.  Crickets.  What's different?   That car has been fast in many races.  Just an example as to why we shouldn't overreact to one race of overdog status.  There are potentially a lot of factors, including tires vs competitors, who else showed up to the race, whether, course type, etc.  That's why you wait and see a pattern.  We do not have one yet.  

Dude....  Unless I am missing what the first response was about, I am fairly certain we are talking about triggering reviews.

 

This is about REViEWING!!

 

Not increasing.

 

6 races entered and 6 fastest laps is FOR SURE a pattern.  

 

Time to look at it.

 

I am not saying change it.  I am saying it's time to look at the factors and see if it's an issue.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

At Autobahn, a Camaro was 2.4 seconds better than the field on Sunday. On Saturday it was 3 full seconds faster than the field.  It got a 1st and a 2nd.  Crickets.  What's different?   That car has been fast in many races.  Just an example as to why we shouldn't overreact to one race of overdog status.  There are potentially a lot of factors, including tires vs competitors, who else showed up to the race, whether, course type, etc.  That's why you wait and see a pattern.  We do not have one yet.  

This year?? The Subliminal Racing corvette was 2nd Saturday and broke halfway through Sunday. I don't remember a Camaro there. It was the fastest car on track by a few seconds.

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4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Dude....  read.

 

This is about REViEWING!!

 

Not increasing.

 

6 races entered and 6 fastest laps is FOR SURE a pattern.  

 

Time to look at it.

 

I am not saying change it.  I am saying it's time to look at the factors and see if it's an issue.

I disagree, unless we are to review all cars that win and set fast lap.  Maybe we should!  I'm ok with the car being on the radar.  Maybe there should be a watch list.  Maybe if Chris was at Autobahn he would have told the Board the Corvette needs a 100 point increase.  Maybe.  So yes, we can certainly review these cars.  But I need more to see a points change.  

3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

This year?? The Subliminal Racing corvette was 2nd Saturday and broke halfway through Sunday. I don't remember a Camaro there. It was the fastest car on track by a few seconds.

I apologize and will change it to Corvette, I misread the results.  Doesn't change a thing.  

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1 minute ago, Jer said:

I disagree, unless we are to review all cars that win and set fast lap.  Maybe we should!  I'm ok with the car being on the radar.  Maybe there should be a watch list.  Maybe if Chris was at Autobahn he would have told the Board the Camaro needs a 100 point increase.  Maybe.  So yes, we can certainly review these cars.  But I need more to see an points change.  

I apologize and will change it to Corvette, I misread the results.  Doesn't change a thing.  

Ah, good!

 

Yes, Troy made a suggestion that seemed to be universally accepted that every race winner and car that set fast lap would be reviewed.  It is thought that the vast majority of these cars would be quickly decided that no vpi change is required.

 

It was then asked how many cars this would be and Chris asked Troy to make a list of these cars for this year to see how many we were talking about.

 

The reason the list was asked about was because the review of these cars will be time consuming (potentially).

 

So, with that info....

 

What SHOULD trigger an automatic REVIEW of a vehicles vpi?

 

I personally thought Troys idea had merit.

 

In fact, I will make that list and see what it looks like.  Lemme get to that in the next 24 hours.

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Ah, good!

 

Yes, Troy made a suggestion that seemed to be universally accepted that every race winner and car that set fast lap would be reviewed.  It is thought that the vast majority of these cars would be quickly decided that no vpi change is required.

 

It was then asked how many cars this would be and Chris asked Troy to make a list of these cars for this year to see how many we were talking about.

 

The reason the list was asked about was because the review of these cars will be time consuming (potentially).

 

So, with that info....

 

What SHOULD trigger an automatic REVIEW of a vehicles vpi?

 

I personally thought Troys idea had merit.

 

In fact, I will make that list and see what it looks like.  Lemme get to that in the next 24 hours.

Agree 100%. I thought his ideas had strong merit.

 

On a side note, I'm willing to wager that without Grant's participation, we no longer see the NC set fast lap anywhere, but if it does it will be very, very close to the field.  If I'm wrong, jack up the points!  I want fair racing and fair opportunities in our series.  I don't want an overdog at all.  They are bad for the series and for the competitors.   

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

Ok I’ll bite.  An overdog has not only the significantly faster lap times but also the fuel to win races. To date we only have one race where this model was 2+ seconds ahead of the field. It has had other fastest laps but not much more than the field and only in a couple of races.  We have plenty of races, in fact many races, where one car beats the field by two seconds in fast lap. That’s not enough to be an overdog.    
 

Since this car was given a 500 point value and then reduced to 400, I would like to see at least a few races where it demonstrates overdog status before increasing the base. Then I would vote for a point increase.  But not after just one dominant performance.  Make sense? 

 

Bite? Bite what? I'm not baiting you.

 

What you said above doesn't answer my question. And I don't disagree with what you said above!!!

 

I asked how much evidence is required? Not one race. I understand. But two? Ten? A certain number of wins? Multiple teams showing equal results? etc? I'm just asking what the metric is, IN YOUR OPINION, for identifying an overdog.

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22 minutes ago, Jer said:

 

 

On a side note, I'm willing to wager that without Grant's participation, we no longer see the NC set fast lap anywhere, but if it does it will be very, very close to the field. 

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/5905407

 

I wasn't there. But Harris Hill last year. Sunday an NC set fast lap and won? By a few seconds too.

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10 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

What happens if Grant builds an E30?

 

Some people will be upset....

 

....or, Nate, rva, tyler, pinkies out, etc will still do well or get faster.

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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

 

In fact, I will make that list and see what it looks like.  Lemme get to that in the next 24 hours.

On the list, I would think TAC has the list of all race results and times. It should be super easy to just look at an excel, I assume excel as all data should be kept there, just my opinion. I am not sure if speedhive exports as an organization, but would have to think so. I would have to think you could export all race data to an excel simply look up to see who won and who set FTD. A nice pivot table can your best friend.  Simple and done. I think Chris wanted me to manually do it to prove some point, when I am betting he had all the data himself. Maybe one of those Chip question landmines. Maybe he would have said, see, your system said it should be reviewed also, so haha, in your face. Though my system is fair to all and a process in place we are all aware off. I can do it if wanted still needed. I would still like to see a transparent review process also to see the why's behind things. I am that person. Give me a reason why and I am good. Give me a just because I said so and shut the hell up and do not dare ask any questions or else is what I have a big problem with, always have, always will.


 

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16 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

 

Bite? Bite what? I'm not baiting you.

 

What you said above doesn't answer my question. And I don't disagree with what you said above!!!

 

I asked how much evidence is required? Not one race. I understand. But two? Ten? A certain number of wins? Multiple teams showing equal results? etc? I'm just asking what the metric is, IN YOUR OPINION, for identifying an overdog.

3 races in a 12 month period.  Show me three races with wins or even podiums and fast laps 2+ seconds that the competitors and I would lead the parade to raise the value of any car.  That's my personal threshold.  I didn't think you were baiting me, sorry about my choice of words.  

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16 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/5905407

 

I wasn't there. But Harris Hill last year. Sunday an NC set fast lap and won? By a few seconds too.

.6 seconds Saturday, 1.3 seconds Sunday in 2020.  In the spring race at HH this year there was at least one NC and it was not a factor either day.    

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5 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

I also read ( I think) that they intend to make the car "a lot faster"   sure sounds like they need WRL to get to the raw speed they really want.  That's great,  you don't build a Spec Miata if you want to race and P1 or GT1 speeds.

 

 

Hah well I'm usually overly-optimistic. I always have lots of ChampCar-legal ideas I think will make the car faster. Most of the time they don't work and I end up wondering why I didn't just look for more weight to remove. Or work on my driving. e.g. a few weeks ago I tried a bunch of different header primary and exhaust lengths. Blew a bunch of time and money, and made less power. At that point I was wanting to keep it Champ-able in GP1, meaning I needed more power without cams.

I firmly believe an optimized ChampCar is roughly GP1 speed, but the rest of the field isn't. We'd like a faster field.

 

4 hours ago, Hurljohn said:

This is where I was when the SC300 went from 400-->500pts.  No discussion, no process, (that I was ever privy to) just a quick judgement from the CEO.


Funny story, years ago when VPI first started SCs I told Mike "Hey you guys know these are MKIV Supras right? I want to build one but don't want the VPI jacked to the moon when we win; can you look at the VPI?". 400 points was too low, but I got no response from Condren. So I decided to pass, and my friend David Tenney built the #225 car. He podiumed (mostly won) every race (Sebring and Daytona only though) he entered for idk 5 years? At some point during that the value got raised.

 

That car is still on its original motor from the early '90s, but has been re-bearing'd twice.

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