The NC Miata

[Rodger Coan-Burningham]

So those of you that would like to specifically discuss this platform, discuss it here.  Quit clogging up my thread on VPI review.

[Team Infiniti]

First question:

 

Who thinks the NC is priced appropriately at 400 points? 

[wvumtnbkr]

29 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

First question:

 

Who thinks the NC is priced appropriately at 400 points? 

Great question....

 

Soooo....  we are discussing a car that is quick and does well.  I wouldn't call it an overdog.

 

I do have concern that it is raced at 475 pts currently.

 

I would think that if that car was 500 pts as raced, it would be about perfect.

 

In other words, maybe 425 pts is appropriate.

 

This is just my opinion and is based on seeing this car race at 2 different tracks.  This build does not seem extreme in any way other than it does not have any part on it that is not absolutely needed.  Very clean build.

Edited August 16, 2021 by wvumtnbkr

[QuaTTro]

12 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Great question....

 

Soooo....  we are discussing a car that is quick and does well.  I wouldn't call it an overdog.

 

I do have concern that it is raced at 475 pts currently.

 

I would think that if that car was 500 pts as raced, it would be about perfect.

 

In other words, maybe 425 pts is appropriate.

 

This is just my opinion and is based on seeing this car race at 2 different tracks.  This build does not seem extreme in any way other than it does not have any part on it that is not absolutely needed.  Very clean build.

What parts are needed that are not already zero points?

 

[wvumtnbkr]

I do not remember what their points were used for.  It seemed like a pretty basic build when just looking at the car.  

 

The car is well done and very lightweight.

[turbogrill]

I think if the NC Miata had 17 gallons it should be more points, currently it's fuel limited at every track.

 

It's 50pts more than the NB, maybe comparing it with the NB should be a good start?

 

400 pts NC = 130 whp, 100-200lbs heavier than similar gutted NB.

 

Also, why is Grants so fast?? Well I bet you every car he would build would be fast, I am stalking him all over internet and he is crazy. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by turbogrill

[MR2 Biohazard]

I would also like to point out there are really two Miata NC models.  NC1 and NC2/3

 

NC1 are from 2006-2008 and NC2/3 from 2009-2015 (the 2014-2015 is a NC3, but has mainly aero/body changes so most consider it the same)

 

The changes on the NC2 off the top of my head, I might be forgetting something.

oil cooler

better abs system

new pistons

new con rods - maybe forged

better valve springs

higher rpm stock ecu 500, but with better valves springs you can flash and go higher

better aero

transmission internals are worked and better - casting defects, stronger for long term issues, ect

 

Saying that, both cars should be able to do a similar flying lap, but nc2 should last long and not break as much.

 

The transmissions can go on these and are super common and if NC1 almost a fure sure issue. The car comes with an LSD, but it will only last like one race or so before it slips so bad it is an open diff. An option might be to just get an open diff rear and weld it.

[MR2 Biohazard]

On the value of 400. I build an excel calculator that uses factors for items, hp, weight, fuel tank size, reliability, fwd/rwd/mid layout, lsd, ind rear susp, ect. I have used this to compare to other models on the vpi and it is usually very very close with a few exceptions. It comes out right around 400 for it.

 

Looking at the specs.

12.7 fuel tank

170 crank hp

2474 lbs

 

In almost all cases it should not be able to go 2 hours, except for maybe AMP, but almost all cars can go 2 hours there as you are not on the gas a ton. We could go twice as long at AMP vs Road America.

 

Reality is almost all miata nc's are the 2200-2400lbs raced without driver or fuel. There is not much to take out unless you go crazy, cut off the roof, strip it out, remove doors and weld it it. They do a decent job at Mazda keeping it light to start with unlike a lot of models that you can easily strip weight out.

 

The 170 crank hp is really 135rwhp stock. The stock header has the cat built into so you have to a header. Someone might be able to cut that up and adapt up something, kindoff, but it is short runners that light the cat up quickly so it is really garbage. With a header and tune you should be in the 150rwhp tune. If you go crazy, lean out and add a lot of timing then maybe 160-162whp range, but risk going boomy boom.

 

The car sits up like a rally car stock and needs springs as they are really soft. Off the shelf springs are good for a street car, but really stiff enough for a race car and to get the level right. You will need a set of adjustable coil over springs to get it handle nice and flat.

[wvumtnbkr]

30 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

I think if the NC Miata had 17 gallons it should be more points, currently it's fuel limited at every track.

 

It's 50pts more than the NB, maybe comparing it with the NB should be a good start?

 

400 pts NC = 130 whp, 100-200lbs heavier than similar gutted NB.

 

Also, why is Grants so fast?? Well I bet you every car he would build would be fast, I am stalking him all over internet and he is crazy. 

130whp?  Wut?

 

I know of a few 1.6 and 1.8 cars that are making that or more.

 

Nb miata is rated at 142 hp.

Nc is rated at 170 hp.

 

Almost 30 hp for 50 pts doesn't sound horrible to me.  

 

I wonder what the real difference is in as raced weight since I was told that grants car is sub 2k.

 

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

35 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

I think if the NC Miata had 17 gallons it should be more points, currently it's fuel limited at every track.

 

It's 50pts more than the NB, maybe comparing it with the NB should be a good start?

 

400 pts NC = 130 whp, 100-200lbs heavier than similar gutted NB.

 

Also, why is Grants so fast?? Well I bet you every car he would build would be fast, I am stalking him all over internet and he is crazy. 

As to why grant is so fast. You can fit, with a lot of flaring, 255/40/17 tires.

 

In saying that the Cooper tires are truly amazing and makes a massive difference.

 

Also, Grant and Chuck are stupid fast.

[wvumtnbkr]

4 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

On the value of 400. I build an excel calculator that uses factors for items, hp, weight, fuel tank size, reliability, fwd/rwd/mid layout, lsd, ind rear susp, ect. I have used this to compare to other models on the vpi and it is usually very very close with a few exceptions. It comes out right around 400 for it.

 

Looking at the specs.

12.7 fuel tank

170 crank hp

2474 lbs

 

In almost all cases it should not be able to go 2 hours, except for maybe AMP, but almost all cars can go 2 hours there as you are not on the gas a ton. We could go twice as long at AMP vs Road America.

 

Reality is almost all miata nc's are the 2200-2400lbs raced without driver or fuel. There is not much to take out unless you go crazy, cut off the roof, strip it out, remove doors and weld it it. They do a decent job at Mazda keeping it light to start with unlike a lot of models that you can easily strip weight out.

 

The 170 crank hp is really 135rwhp stock. The stock header has the cat built into so you have to a header. Someone might be able to cut that up and adapt up something, kindoff, but it is short runners that light the cat up quickly so it is really garbage. With a header and tune you should be in the 150rwhp tune. If you go crazy, lean out and add a lot of timing then maybe 160-162whp range, but risk going boomy boom.

 

The car sits up like a rally car stock and needs springs as they are really soft. Off the shelf springs are good for a street car, but really stiff enough for a race car and to get the level right. You will need a set of adjustable coil over springs to get it handle nice and flat.

So, adding headers and coilovers solves it's problems....

 

Should be about 425 pts then, right?

[MR2 Biohazard]

1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

130whp?  Wut?

 

I know of a few 1.6 and 1.8 cars that are making that or more.

 

Nb miata is rated at 142 hp.

Nc is rated at 170 hp.

 

Almost 30 hp for 50 pts doesn't sound horrible to me.  

 

I wonder what the real difference is in as raced weight since I was told that grants car is sub 2k.

 

 

I have mine cut up a lot also and Grant has shared his real numbers with me. He is a good amount lighter, but if you look at his car, no roof, no dash, do door hindges, ect. It is the most gutted clean and light car I have seen. I wonder what he could actually do with something like and SC300. If he did we would be having the same thread conversation about that car instead of the miata nc.

 

I bet Grants car is like 300 lbs light than the next lightest NC car and hope mine will be the middle of both.

[turbogrill]

16 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

Saying that, both cars should be able to do a similar flying lap, but nc2 should last long and not break as much.

Agree. I think the diff is maybe 5pts or so.  Your hubs are more likely to break before your NC1 vs NC2, and that is 5pts. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

130whp?  Wut?

 

 

Yes a bone stock NC Miata is 130whp. Have you driven one? They suck.

 

6 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

Reality is almost all miata nc's are the 2200-2400lbs

Ours weighted in at 2368 lbs at WRL scales. That is full of fuel no driver. It's "normal" race car gutted (still has a windshield, race battery, etc,etc). 

Most NCs are GP3 at WRL, except a few with built engines or swapped. Grants might be GP1/GP2 but he cant do WRL because it doesn't have a windshield

 

 

 

[wvumtnbkr]

Shouldn't we be discussing listed hp, not whp?

 

All cars have less whp than what is marketed.

 

Wouldn't a bone stock 2.5l e30 put down about the same hp as the miata?

 

It's still 30 hp more than an NB.

[wvumtnbkr]

I guess, I'm just confused because people are saying the value shouldn't be changed because only 1 team is taking advantage of the rules with respect to this platform.

 

Why can't the other teams lose weight, run bigger tires, etc...?  The recipe is there.  

 

The issue I have with the value is that this one car (which I am NOT looking at penalizing), is not yet at 500 pts.  

 

If some other team followed the recipe AND used the remaining 25 pts, how capable would THAT car be?

[turbogrill]

1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

It's still 30 hp more than an NB.

 

Yes! Rated it's 25-27hp more (they changed the rating over the years)

 

Is that worth 50pts? Maybe!

 

E30 vs NC Miata would interesting! Don't know anything about E30s except that they seem to win all the time.

[turbogrill]

1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I guess, I'm just confused because people are saying the value shouldn't be changed because only 1 team is taking advantage of the rules with respect to this platform.

 

Why can't the other teams lose weight, run bigger tires, etc...?  The recipe is there.  

 

The issue I have with the value is that this one car (which I am NOT looking at penalizing), is not yet at 500 pts.  

 

If some other team followed the recipe AND used the remaining 25 pts, how capable would THAT car be?

 

I haven't seen an E30 without a roof and no windshield, so is it possible to build an E30 that is much faster than whatis out there? Maybe?

 

Typical NC build:
400 base
25 header
40 coilovers
20 swaybar
10 areo?
5 pts hubs
---------

500pts

That would be a fun, cheap and pretty reliable car. But again, fuel limited. I believe the E30 has 17 gallons? So the difference there might be that the NC would have to take an extra stop.

 

Also, S2000s are 500pts....

[wvumtnbkr]

E30 vs nc...   

 

Same hp.

 

Same / similar as raced weight (some extreme examples down to possibly sub 2k lbs).

 

E30 has more fuel.  A good bit more. (12.7 versus 17.2 gallons)

 

E30 suspension is a multilink in the rear with a strut front end.  No alignment adjustment in the rear.

 

So, nc better suspension.  E30, better fuel.

 

Nc 400 pts.

 

E30 450 pts.

[shutupracing]

41 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

On the value of 400. I build an excel calculator that uses factors for items, hp, weight, fuel tank size, reliability, fwd/rwd/mid layout, lsd, ind rear susp, ect. I have used this to compare to other models on the vpi and it is usually very very close with a few exceptions. It comes out right around 400 for it.

 

What does an E30 come out to?

[QuaTTro]

17 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

 

E30 vs NC Miata would interesting! Don't know anything about E30s except that they seem to win all the time.

 

To be fair, you and I always race at Harris Hill and you don't see E30's on the podium...in fact as soon as NC's showed up at Harris Hill they've always been on the podium including a couple 1st places.  

[Grant]

The biggest reason we chose an NC Miata was the number of other people campaigning them. We reasoned they couldn't be written out of the series (my last ChampCar build became 600 points). It is 1950 lbs full of gas, by the way.

The roof and windshield removal were probably a mistake. It saves some weight but prevents you from venting the hood, which is a big reducer of front end lift. It also increases drag, even with all our attention to minimizing things in the airstream. Most annoyingly it prevents me from running WRL with the car. I still vastly prefer it to a closed car, but a lot of that comes from getting CO poisoning and generally overheating in closed cars.

CMP is a low-speed track so it's possible the roof removal is advantage there.

But again I don't know why CMP lap times are relevant? There were no fast cars there. No MK or WTF like were at our other races. The Danger Racing SC300 probably could have challenged us had they not of hit a Miata. We could go 1:47s conserving fuel to last two hours, while I think they did a 1:46 obviously not needing to conserve. And that car should be making more power IMO. The lack of full-course cautions really hurt us.

Bone stock, flat shifting every gear my NC ran 15.4 @ 91.9 mph. I tried to include the PBox pic but it's keeping this reply from going through. Now I think it's 13.6 @ 102. 

 

E30s are literally the worst RWD chassis I can think of. I don't know why people like them. Edit: Ok, the fuel advantage is nice given ChampCar's 5 minute fuel minimum.

If anyone needs help getting faster, they can just ask. We freely share data and advice. We'd love it if the pace of ChampCar races increased; then we wouldn't need to go to WRL.

Yes you need an unhealthy obsession with weight reduction to build a fast ChampCar. This is part of what makes the series great, because light weight is the only way to go fast cheaply. There are no other options.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Grant

[MR2 Biohazard]

39 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I guess, I'm just confused because people are saying the value shouldn't be changed because only 1 team is taking advantage of the rules with respect to this platform.

 

Why can't the other teams lose weight, run bigger tires, etc...?  The recipe is there.  

 

The issue I have with the value is that this one car (which I am NOT looking at penalizing), is not yet at 500 pts.  

 

If some other team followed the recipe AND used the remaining 25 pts, how capable would THAT car be?

I would argue that that can be said of almost any vehicle out there. Take the SC300 for example. It is 500 points now, but if someone really went crazy like Grant and took out 300-500lbs with cutting and going super light, put super sticky tires on it at that weight and really tuned the engine to the knife edge they would be winning by laps and laps at every race. Does that mean we should raise the SC300 right now as it has much more potential if we take that much weight out, add super sticky tires and put pro drivers in there?

[Grant]

44 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Typical NC build:
400 base
25 header
40 coilovers
20 swaybar
10 areo?
5 pts hubs

That sounds typical, but hubs aren't strictly required.

 

Of course no max-effort ChampCar build is going to include coilovers. You'd run custom springs with re-valved Bilsteins for zero points. Also our front sway bar is stock with a new hole drilled to stiffen it up slightly. No rear sway bar. This is atypical but I like my rear ride frequencies a bit higher than the front's.

 

If the NC was near 500 points we'd build a roof and windshield and go WRL racing.

[Hurljohn]

30 minutes ago, Grant said:

That sounds typical, but hubs aren't strictly required.

 

Of course no max-effort ChampCar build is going to include coilovers. You'd run custom springs with re-valved Bilsteins for zero points. Also our front sway bar is stock with a new hole drilled to stiffen it up slightly. No rear sway bar. This is atypical but I like my rear ride frequencies a bit higher than the front's.

 

If the NC was near 500 points we'd build a roof and windshield and go WRL racing.

You would probably need a door. 

[chbright]

36 minutes ago, Grant said:

That sounds typical, but hubs aren't strictly required.

 

Of course no max-effort ChampCar build is going to include coilovers. You'd run custom springs with re-valved Bilsteins for zero points. Also our front sway bar is stock with a new hole drilled to stiffen it up slightly. No rear sway bar. This is atypical but I like my rear ride frequencies a bit higher than the front's.

 

If the NC was near 500 points we'd build a roof and windshield and go WRL racing.

 

Is that really where we want the series to go?  That has been available for a while now, but few are really taking advantage. Only a select few cars have readily available springs that meet champ's size/shape requirements and have real racing rates, not just slammed street rates.