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The NC Miata


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8 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Sounds like a terribly unsafe idea, unless there's some weird double firewall thing in a miata and cutting out that firewall doesn't expose the driver to the engine bay...

 

Yes agree, I think it would went to just before the windshield. So where the wipers are

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7 hours ago, turbogrill said:

What? That's just the center engine access port thingy. There's a lot more metal behind it. We just removed the whole thing since it doesn't seem to be structural and weighs 2 lbs. The Spec MX5s probably need a few of the things that mount to that plate, so they cut a hole in it instead.

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2 hours ago, Chummy said:

it's probably been asked,  but does grants car run power steering?

Yes though I did want to try without it. NCs run a lot more caster than NA/Bs so it's probably needed.

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I put mine in with the trans already on the engine. I wonder if it is easier with or without.

I have NEVER found a car that was easier to put them in separately.  I HATE bench pressing the trans in while aligning the input shaft.  It's always a giant pain in the balls.

 

He'll, it's usually easier for me to pull the engine and trans to change a clutch.  However, with my swap, I made sure it was easy.  

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I went with Ecutek for the flat-shift option, but if I had to do it over again I'd go open source (https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=630805) and try to hack in my own flat shift fuel cut.

 

Ecutek software is very buggy and annoying. It also requires a security dongle, my first of which failed on the dyno.

 

I wanted to stay with the stock ECU, because my experience no one does knock detection better.

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21 hours ago, Chummy said:

what ecu / tuning are you all using for the NC. definitely seems like a lot less options than usual 

 

From a performance point of view it seems like the stock ecu will work just fine.

 

Stock ECU:
- Romdrop, open source. Missing some of the features like autoblip

- Ecutek. Feels like a windows 98 visual basic program. 

 

Aftermarket ECU:

- Haltech elite 1500. 

- Me442. Has a connector that works with stock harness

 

 

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11 hours ago, Grant said:

I went with Ecutek for the flat-shift option, but if I had to do it over again I'd go open source (https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=630805) and try to hack in my own flat shift fuel cut.

 

Ecutek software is very buggy and annoying. It also requires a security dongle, my first of which failed on the dyno.

 

I wanted to stay with the stock ECU, because my experience no one does knock detection better.

thanks for the info

3 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

From a performance point of view it seems like the stock ecu will work just fine.

 

Stock ECU:
- Romdrop, open source. Missing some of the features like autoblip

- Ecutek. Feels like a windows 98 visual basic program. 

 

Aftermarket ECU:

- Haltech elite 1500. 

- Me442. Has a connector that works with stock harness

 

 

thanks for the info

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11 hours ago, Grant said:

I went with Ecutek for the flat-shift option, but if I had to do it over again I'd go open source (https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=630805) and try to hack in my own flat shift fuel cut.

 

Ecutek software is very buggy and annoying. It also requires a security dongle, my first of which failed on the dyno.

 

I wanted to stay with the stock ECU, because my experience no one does knock detection better.

Can you explain a bit about the flat shift cut and why you like it?

I assume it closes the DBW throttle if the clutch is engaged and allows you to keep your right foot down while shifting. Sounds neat. How is it better than a competent driver lifting in conjunction with a shift? 
Also, sounds fine under normal circumstances, but what happens if you’re shifting slowly because of an ailing trans, or you need to rev match because you missed the gear. Or maybe you need to rev up to match a gear while clutch is in because you were coasting behind the pace car?

 

I guess what I’m saying is: is this programming substantially smarter and more complicated than I expect? And also, how is it ever better than a competent driver matching revs on their own? I see it being at best equal to a competent driver and at worst a huge complication and worse in non-flat out situations. 

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23 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Can you explain a bit about the flat shift cut and why you like it?

I assume it closes the DBW throttle if the clutch is engaged and allows you to keep your right foot down while shifting. Sounds neat. How is it better than a competent driver lifting in conjunction with a shift? 
Also, sounds fine under normal circumstances, but what happens if you’re shifting slowly because of an ailing trans, or you need to rev match because you missed the gear. Or maybe you need to rev up to match a gear while clutch is in because you were coasting behind the pace car?

 

I guess what I’m saying is: is this programming substantially smarter and more complicated than I expect? And also, how is it ever better than a competent driver matching revs on their own? I see it being at best equal to a competent driver and at worst a huge complication and worse in non-flat out situations. 

Obviously not grant but flat foot shifting will only work with 100% throttle. If you let off like you normally would for a shift, everything goes as normal.

 

Why use it? Its faster every time, and it is consistent every time. We aren't talking about seconds a lap here, but I have no doubt you may see up to .1-.2 second a lap improvement.

 

It is usually used in turbo DBW cars so you don't loose boost during shifting (spark cut)

 

 

Edited by BMW_CEMETERY
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The flat upshift is a nice addition to have, and like already said if you are having issues as soon as you lift it disables the system. To me the real improvement is the downshift auto blip. One less thing for the driver to worry about, and again if you are having problems the system disengages as soon as you blip the throttle yourself. 

 

As for standalone ECU, pretty much any system besides MS will work, which pains me since I already have a nice MS3Pro in the car and I am proficient with Tuner Studio. They have made the decision to never support DBW so its not an option if you want to keep the stock throttle body. 

 

For anyone want to swap an MZR into a different car I got the rule changed for 2022 so you can use a cable throttle body if you want to without any hassle. 

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2 hours ago, enginerd said:

Can you explain a bit about the flat shift cut and why you like it?

I assume it closes the DBW throttle if the clutch is engaged and allows you to keep your right foot down while shifting. Sounds neat. How is it better than a competent driver lifting in conjunction with a shift? 
Also, sounds fine under normal circumstances, but what happens if you’re shifting slowly because of an ailing trans, or you need to rev match because you missed the gear. Or maybe you need to rev up to match a gear while clutch is in because you were coasting behind the pace car?

 

I guess what I’m saying is: is this programming substantially smarter and more complicated than I expect? And also, how is it ever better than a competent driver matching revs on their own? I see it being at best equal to a competent driver and at worst a huge complication and worse in non-flat out situations. 

It cuts fuel when the clutch disengages, based on clutch switch input. It's only faster than an ideal driver because airflow doesn't slow and speed up again when the throttle slams shut and opens.

 

It only activates near WOT and higher RPM, like any NLTS system. There are plenty of configuration options here. You can lift-shift the car just fine.

 

Ecutek's code however is much worse than most others when it comes to actually timing the fuel cut. For some reason on slower shifts it's slow to re-enable fuel when the clutch re-engages. If you shift very quickly this isn't a problem, so that's what we do.

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24 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

The flat upshift is a nice addition to have, and like already said if you are having issues as soon as you lift it disables the system. To me the real improvement is the downshift auto blip. One less thing for the driver to worry about, and again if you are having problems the system disengages as soon as you blip the throttle yourself.

 

For us match-rev downshifting isn't an issue, but for teams who rent seats out I agree it could be critical. Poor rev matching can break transmissions. However I've not tried their auto blip code, and I can't even get into it now to show you the configuration without the damn security dongle... Unless it's a lot better than the rest of the software, it probably leaves something to be desired.

 

It's worth noting that my M6 car does not put gear data on the CAN bus. I wonder if the ECU knows what gear it's in? There's just flags for neutral, the clutch switch and reverse.

 

I primarily wanted NLTS to keep my co-driver from WOT shifting trying to beat my times.

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19 minutes ago, Grant said:

 

For us match-rev downshifting isn't an issue, but for teams who rent seats out I agree it could be critical. Poor rev matching can break transmissions. However I've not tried their auto blip code, and I can't even get into it now to show you the configuration without the damn security dongle... Unless it's a lot better than the rest of the software, it probably leaves something to be desired.

 

It's worth noting that my M6 car does not put gear data on the CAN bus. I wonder if the ECU knows what gear it's in? There's just flags for neutral, the clutch switch and reverse.

 

I primarily wanted NLTS to keep my co-driver from WOT shifting trying to beat my times.

 

Too true. When we first started racing it was a bunch of turbo engineers who had no idea about driving a race car. 

20131106_225820.jpg.724a8edd29b7b7ef36c96caee8f9f728.jpg

 

Now I can put together a group of seasoned drivers who know how to get around a racetrack effectively. 

 

I don't have a Miata so I can use pretty much any ECU I want. For a few minutes I thought about a stock ECU and ECUTek, the hardware is obviously good and some things the OEM does better than I can do, but the software limitations talked me out of it. 

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Turns out corner balancing with cutting springs is a major pain in the ass, so I might give up and just buy coil overs.

Many good adjustable options for entry level race but for non-adjustable these seems to be the ones:

- Penske SPEC MX-5, $2000
- Bilstein B14 + revalve + springs,  ~$1500
- MeisterR Sportive + springs, ~$1000

MeisterR could make a custom one as well, you would buy a good adjustable one and figure out what damping you want and tell them that. But seems like a lot of work and money.

From what I understand both the B14 and MeisterR are very soft so they would need new springs and revalve, it's more of a street setup than a race setup. 
The Penske shocks seems to come with a good spring rate from the factory but are the most costly. 

 

Benefit with the B14 is that they are available everywhere.

Besides cost, any downsides with the Penske Shocks?


edit:
I have the stiffest lowering springs available (FM), but I can't get more than -2 camber. I cut them and now got -2.3 but need much more so I would have to cut more. 

Edited by turbogrill
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On 10/1/2021 at 11:11 AM, turbogrill said:

I have the stiffest lowering springs available (FM), but I can't get more than -2 camber. I cut them and now got -2.3 but need much more so I would have to cut more. 

The way to set up ChampCar suspension is to cut springs and measure their rates until you get the desired spring rate. Then build a spacer or move the spring perch to get the desired ride height. It's a massive pain in the ass, and ends up being very expensive if you go through multiple sets of springs or buy custom ones.

 

On Bilsteins like the NC we can machine a higher snap ring grove in the shock to move the spring perch.

 

We did all this on our first build (a Z32) and I refuse to do it again.

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4 hours ago, Grant said:

The way to set up ChampCar suspension is to cut springs and measure their rates until you get the desired spring rate. Then build a spacer or move the spring perch to get the desired ride height. It's a massive pain in the ass, and ends up being very expensive if you go through multiple sets of springs or buy custom ones.

 

On Bilsteins like the NC we can machine a higher snap ring grove in the shock to move the spring perch.

 

We did all this on our first build (a Z32) and I refuse to do it again.

I have a tech desk answer that states a spacer or non OE perch would be assessed the same 10pts as coil overs.  

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12 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

I have a tech desk answer that states a spacer or non OE perch would be assessed the same 10pts as coil overs.  

Unless of course that spacer was made from metal discs cut from the now removed roof of the car… because ‘repurposing’. 

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4 hours ago, petawawarace said:

I have a tech desk answer that states a spacer or non OE perch would be assessed the same 10pts as coil overs.  

Hrm the BCCR states:

Quote

o Springs may be cut and/or used with spacers (spring rubbers) for no additional points

and:

Quote

Adjustable spring perches, or any non-OE part or modification giving ride height adjustability 10-points per corner.

So it sounds like it's not points unless it's adjustable.

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