turbogrill Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) Hi, Got a new trapezoid style window net to make the tech guy happy, problem is that it covers the side mirror. Anyone figured out a nice way around it? Cutting a peak hole in the window net seems like a bad idea. Never really seen any aftermarket side mirrors on CC cars, don't you guys use the side mirrors? Would aftermarket side mirror be points? (I wouldn't think so but a fender flare is so...) Edited August 30, 2021 by turbogrill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuaTTro Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 I got the little convex round mirror that attaches to the roll cage 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 I have an issue with the poorly conceived and completely arbitrary attempt by Tech (and you know who) to try and implement this while trying to gaslight members who called this out for what it was...a rule change in the middle of the season. And on that note, it would be good for Tech to understand the definition of a "vertical plane" before trying to enforce it. Not only does this poorly conceived and completely ridiculous requirement block a usable side view mirror, it closes off the window opening. You can't cut a "peek hole" it the net...it'll compromise the "SFI rating". Side mirrors are not points. We run the bar-mounted convex mirrors and love them. FWIW...the net apparently needs to go to the steering wheel (now, anyway). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickindy14 Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) We relocated the driver's side mirror. Edited August 30, 2021 by mickindy14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) I will look into the bar mounted mirrors! Thanks! They make carbon fiber aero optimized side mirrors that according to the manufacturer "shave of tenths". Maybe get a 3-4 of those to reduce my lap time Edited August 30, 2021 by turbogrill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy G. Elliott Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 8 minutes ago, turbogrill said: I will look into the bar mounted mirrors! Thanks! They make carbon fiber aero optimized side mirrors that according to the manufacturer "shave of tenths". Maybe get a 3-4 of those to reduce my lap time We never had the side mirrors, to start with, seemed areo mod to not have them or outside door handles, we do have a large wink that none of us us have complained about, side view is plenty with it for us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 You could put the mirrors out on your fenders. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 11 hours ago, Snorman said: I have an issue with the poorly conceived and completely arbitrary attempt by Tech (and you know who) to try and implement this while trying to gaslight members who called this out for what it was...a rule change in the middle of the season. And on that note, it would be good for Tech to understand the definition of a "vertical plane" before trying to enforce it. Not only does this poorly conceived and completely ridiculous requirement block a usable side view mirror, it closes off the window opening. You can't cut a "peek hole" it the net...it'll compromise the "SFI rating". Side mirrors are not points. We run the bar-mounted convex mirrors and love them. FWIW...the net apparently needs to go to the steering wheel (now, anyway). Well, technically this rule was invented at the first race of the season, so it’s not exactly a mid-season rule change, but your point is a good one. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 24 minutes ago, mhr650 said: Well, technically this rule was invented at the first race of the season, so it’s not exactly a mid-season rule change, but your point is a good one. Correct, it was at the beginning of the year. And the snarky response from Bill was that if people didn't like it, they should submit midseason petition to have it changed. When in reality, there was no change to the language in the BCCR. There was a decent thread about this (started by me) when via FB posts and comments, it became clear that somebody changed the window net rules without telling anybody. And from a face-to-face discussion I had with a BOD member at Daytona, apparently the BOD, TAC and CEO had had no idea this was done. Then at Daytona, Tech started being very liberal and helpful about the "new" window net rule, giving waivers and noting log books. This isn't the way it's supposed to happen...a couple of people arbitrarily deciding the change the rules, then telling people on FB how to comply with a new interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gkuhn41 Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 We use the same net we always have and added plexi glass to cover the remaining area. our mirror never changed positions. and we can see out just fine. Did suck to do after years of not needing it though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 This is kind of intriguing. The net that had been in my car for the past 5 years of Chaump and the previous 10+ with other orgs did have a bit of a gap at the vent window. So I added some lexan to help cover it. The quote at VIR tech to describe it was "garbage" and "not what we want". But rather than whip out the rule book and ask them how to interpret what is written there, I got them to let me race but change it for the next event. Fast forward next event and I asked what was driving the issue. Basically, faster cars, bigger/badder crashes, trying to stay out in front of the problem before someone gets hurt. This makes good sense. The other comment was that there is some new language coming. I agree that the current tech request keeps you from seeing well out of the mirror, can't give point by's or pit in signals. My personal opinion is that point by's prevent crashes, so their importance to safety needs to be considered when looking at other rules. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, MMiskoe said: But rather than whip out the rule book and ask them how to interpret what is written there, I got them to let me race but change it for the next event. ... The other comment was that there is some new language coming. The BCCR is supposed to be what dictates the rules in the series, not arbitrary and unwritten opinions. Nothing should change with the window net rule until it's formalized in the BCCR and approved by the BOD as a change. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 34 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said: We use the same net we always have and added plexi glass to cover the remaining area. our mirror never changed positions. and we can see out just fine. This what we did. Had some leftover lexan from making rear quarter windows, so I cut a triangle and screwed it to the door. Can see the mirror fine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 57 minutes ago, Ian said: This what we did. Had some leftover lexan from making rear quarter windows, so I cut a triangle and screwed it to the door. Can see the mirror fine. That is more clever! Who wants to buy my over priced $80 window net I just bought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shutupracing Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 7 hours ago, MMiskoe said: Fast forward next event and I asked what was driving the issue. Basically, faster cars, bigger/badder crashes, trying to stay out in front of the problem before someone gets hurt. Huh? Where have these bigger badder crashes happened? I was at another series event the other weekend. Every single car there was prepped better than 99% of champ cars. And 80% are significantly faster than champcars. And every single car wouldn’t have passed champcars rule. I don’t follow the logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMiskoe Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 I'm just reporting what my experience has been lately. Not commenting on if it was right/wrong, logical, etc. Just reiterating what was said and heard. I did comment at the time that I've been doing this for 25 years and only seen one hand injury and that was an instructor riding in a car with no net and the window all the way down. Another comment of mine was that regardless of what the requirement is, having it change when you're in tech line is NOT the way to do things. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 hours ago, MMiskoe said: Another comment of mine was that regardless of what the requirement is, having it change when you're in tech line is NOT the way to do things. It was better than that. It was being changed via Facebook posts. We were being gaslighted into thinking "it's always been this way", when in fact, it 100% was not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Coan-Burningham Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 On 8/30/2021 at 12:38 PM, Ian said: This what we did. Had some leftover lexan from making rear quarter windows, so I cut a triangle and screwed it to the door. Can see the mirror fine. You will see the mirror fine until you race in the rain and it blinds over from water, mist, fog, grime. I don't like the idea, especially having had to rip off the lexan covering that area in the middle of a race 4 years ago at AMP so we could see. Have not put it back since. I did buy a new net this year for about $30 that comes past the steering wheel, seemed kind of silly but it's there now and makes everybody happy I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 26 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said: You will see the mirror fine until you race in the rain and it blinds over from water, mist, fog, grime. I don't like the idea, especially having had to rip off the lexan covering that area in the middle of a race 4 years ago at AMP so we could see. Have not put it back since. I did buy a new net this year for about $30 that comes past the steering wheel, seemed kind of silly but it's there now and makes everybody happy I guess. Maybe true. Our rearview mirror is basically in line with the steering wheel, so the only way to cover the whole area per the new "rule" would block the mirror entirely. Not to mention forcing us to replace the trapezoid net (which isn't trapezoid enough) I had literally bought 6 months before the new "rule" was instituted. We'll use the lexan as a bandaid to satisfy tech until our net expires, then we will decide on a path foreword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misshift Posted May 14, 2022 Report Share Posted May 14, 2022 During 2022 tech inspection I was advised that the opening on drivers window was no longer acceptable. Tech inspection from several years ago had advised me to put in the lexan at front of window opening and all was good. Now not so good despite having new net. So several questions: After reading the rules and the forums there doesn't appear to be any real guidelines. The only guideline that comes up is net up to steering wheel. To accomplish that is going to be tough. Looking from the side of the car inline at the steering wheel, the steering wheel is only a couple of inches behind the door mirror mounting. Or about the middle of the lexan filler window. To comply with net to the wheel would basically cover the entire opening. The car is an E36 2 door coupe, anyone have answers, suggestions or pictures of what you have done? A measurement of the how big the opening is at the front of the net? Currently 8" from lexan to net and 1" at top of net to roll cage. My knuckles measure 4 1/2" across, so a 5" opening would seem acceptable. Driver needs room to release the net and emergency workers to reach in for access to fire bottle pull knob Moving the net forward 3" is an option. However there is then a 3" gap at the top of the net to roll cage due to having to lower the mount on the cage A pillar bar. Acceptable? For those using the angle or trapezoid nets what type of top release are you using? I have a seat belt buckle type with the push button facing the outside of the car. I was of the understanding this is the correct way to install so that emergency workers can easily release. The concern is will the driver from inside the car still be able to release the net? Or will the angle portion of the net obstruct access to the latch/buckle? Considering the allstar or RJS nets as a fix? Of course fixing the opening does result in mirror obstruction. Will have to consider solutions for that along with net changes. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rad Posted May 15, 2022 Report Share Posted May 15, 2022 We ran into the same issue with our E36 coupe. Fail: Pass: No lexan required. We cut the upper mounts off and moved them forward. Then we put a bend in the upper bar. Here's the driver's vantage point and our mirror solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted May 15, 2022 Report Share Posted May 15, 2022 Basically, if your hand can go out the window easily, it's not far enough forward... That being said, follow the bccr. If you car meets the bccr, you are legal and definitely can argue with tech or higher if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misshift Posted May 15, 2022 Report Share Posted May 15, 2022 B-rad, thanks for the pictures. It does appear that creative fabrication will be required. Does your air vent work good? Been thinking about doing something like you have. wvumtnbkr, you used the word easily. That's where I'm getting hung up. Yes, the car needs to be improved. Where is the the line from easy to difficult to not at all while still having access to the net release, fire bottle pull handle, and mirror vision. BCCR leaves it up tech to decide. So at that point it turns into a matter of opinion. Thanks guys, appreciate the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rad Posted May 15, 2022 Report Share Posted May 15, 2022 The air vent works great. It started as a piece of brake duct hose that was zip-tied in place. It worked so well that my buddy 3D printed what you see there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitsbain Posted May 16, 2022 Report Share Posted May 16, 2022 Ok, its time for the silly citrus to weigh in. Mirrors are important, not being able to see the guy on your rear quarter before you turn in, will result in more accidents. Yes its technically his job to not be there, but we all know that doesn't happen. Adding lexan (as some have done) could impair a drivers ability to exit the care in the event that the driver must exit quickly through the window. I know at the champ race in Pittsburgh last year, our car caught fire. From smoke, to stopped, to pulling the fire bottle and exiting the car, Our driver took 18 seconds. Do you y,all (yup i'm from pittsburgh) make the lexan break-away? Also, seems like the lexan "vent" windows, would seem to violate the "no driver or passanger windows". -Citrus Rant Off- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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