Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted September 1, 2021 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 I think this is the largest change in the 2022 BCCR. I am going to withhold my opinion on this change, but I am sure the BOD would like feedback on the proposed change so please post it here. 9.10.2. Total fuel capacity, including all fillers and overflows, shall not exceed the OEM stated fuel capacity for the make/model plus two (2) gallons. This applies to cars equipped with OE fuel tanks and to cars with approved fuel cells. 9.10.2.1. Total fuel capacity may be verified by ChampCar via the drain and fill method. The fuel tank will be completely drained and then refilled with known amounts until fuel escapes the fill port. 9.10.3. Surge tanks are limited to 2-Liter (.53-gallons) capacity. Surge tanks do not count towards the total fuel system capacity. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted September 1, 2021 Administrators Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 https://champcar.org/web/pdf/2022bccr/2022bccrv1/2022_BCCR_V1.0.pdf I will have to redo both cars. The only issue I see is that it helps big tank cars. before we could equalize with them. But now that is taken away. But I do see the safety side of it, after seeing how some guys have done their fuel fills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 Some of the fill necks I've seen at races really were getting pretty obscene, so I'm not suprised to see tech try to rein that in a bit. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wink Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 4.2.2.1. Vehicles less than 15 years old will not be assigned VPI values This is new, are we grand-father'ing cars that are younger than 15 years old and already have a VPI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 (edited) The rule is written incorrectly for what they want to accomplish. Every car in this series currently with a cell is now no longer legal. Has anyone ever seen anyone at a pit stop NOT fill up till fuel is overflowing or coming out of their overflow setup? Every car with a cell will now be over the the stated capacity, unless you are filling directly into the cell which I personally haven't seen but i guess could happen. Who comes up with this stuff? Why was this changed as there was NO petition for this? This was NOT discussed or mentioned in the Annual BOD meeting/presentation. Trying to slip this in the BCCR with NO member feedback is exactly what pisses people off and the series usually gets wrong anyways. I guess the series never learns. I'm happy but my teammates will not be as this will mean we are going to WRL where their rule actually makes sense. I just wish we would have known sooner so we could have registered for the Sebring 24 instead of the CCES races. Edited September 1, 2021 by Snake 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Wink said: 4.2.2.1. Vehicles less than 15 years old will not be assigned VPI values This is new, are we grand-father'ing cars that are younger than 15 years old and already have a VPI? Yep. You got it correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 17 minutes ago, Bill Strong said: https://champcar.org/web/pdf/2022bccr/2022bccrv1/2022_BCCR_V1.0.pdf I will have to redo both cars. The only issue I see is that it helps big tank cars. before we could equalize with them. But now that is taken away. But I do see the safety side of it, after seeing how some guys have done their fuel fills. Just curious, but can't you just throw a displacement ball in there and be fine? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Originalsterm Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: Just curious, but can't you just throw a displacement ball in there and be fine? Displacement balls in fuel cell should be fine, I was told you couldn't use them in stock tanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 15 minutes ago, Snake said: The rule is written incorrectly for what they want to accomplish. Every car in this series currently with a cell is now no longer legal. Has anyone ever seen anyone at a pit stop NOT fill up till fuel is overflowing or coming out of their overflow setup? Every car with a cell will now be over the the stated capacity, unless you are filling directly into the cell which I personally haven't seen but i guess could happen. Who comes up with this stuff? Why was this changed as there was NO petition for this? This was NOT discussed or mentioned in the Annual BOD meeting/presentation. Trying to slip this in the BCCR with NO member feedback is exactly what pisses people off and the series usually gets wrong anyways. I guess the series never learns. I'm happy but my teammates will not be as this will mean we are going to WRL where their rule actually makes sense. I just wish we would have known sooner so we could have registered for the Sebring 24 instead of the CCES races. Cars with cells may have to add some displacement balls. Not a big deal, those with long fillers high on the car have been "asking" for this sort of rule for a long time. Just my thoughts. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 45 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said: I think this is the largest change in the 2022 BCCR. I am going to withhold my opinion on this change, but I am sure the BOD would like feedback on the proposed change so please post it here. 9.10.2. Total fuel capacity, including all fillers and overflows, shall not exceed the OEM stated fuel capacity for the make/model plus two (2) gallons. This applies to cars equipped with OE fuel tanks and to cars with approved fuel cells. 9.10.2.1. Total fuel capacity may be verified by ChampCar via the drain and fill method. The fuel tank will be completely drained and then refilled with known amounts until fuel escapes the fill port. 9.10.3. Surge tanks are limited to 2-Liter (.53-gallons) capacity. Surge tanks do not count towards the total fuel system capacity. This makes sense to me. Too many have been pushing the limits on the length of the fill necks for some time now. This also limits the tomfoolery that's been going on with stock tanks. It also gives tech a reasonably easy way to enforce the rule in impound 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 17 minutes ago, Snake said: be as this will mean we are going to WRL where their rule actually makes sense. I just wish we would have known sooner so we could have registered for the Sebring 24 instead of the CCES races. We can put a TKO in the car before November and just run WRL from there on out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 Personally I like it. It’s more of a clarification than a new rule. I doubt it’ll hurt any teams with stock tanks. It may help a few. It’s going to hurt a few that had pushed things to the edge with cells and filler necks tho. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Snorman said: We can put a TKO in the car before November and just run WRL from there on out. If the series gives us a refund for the 4 race registrations we can just order it now and run the 24. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 26 minutes ago, Snake said: The rule is written incorrectly for what they want to accomplish. Every car in this series currently with a cell is now no longer legal. Has anyone ever seen anyone at a pit stop NOT fill up till fuel is overflowing or coming out of their overflow setup? Every car with a cell will now be over the the stated capacity, unless you are filling directly into the cell which I personally haven't seen but i guess could happen. Who comes up with this stuff? Why was this changed as there was NO petition for this? This was NOT discussed or mentioned in the Annual BOD meeting/presentation. Trying to slip this in the BCCR with NO member feedback is exactly what pisses people off and the series usually gets wrong anyways. I guess the series never learns. I'm happy but my teammates will not be as this will mean we are going to WRL where their rule actually makes sense. I just wish we would have known sooner so we could have registered for the Sebring 24 instead of the CCES races. Can you explain how every car with a cell will be illegal? They may need to add displacement blocks for the extra fuel in their filler neck, but that’s it. FYI : most cells don’t hold as much as they list. My 15g cell only holds 14.3gal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shutupracing Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 So we were the only team with a fuel cell measuring the total capacity already including the fuel that went up the filler neck? Interesting. Guess we gotta do a whole lotta nothing to comply. 8 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, petawawarace said: FYI : most cells don’t hold as much as they list. My 15g cell only holds 14.3gal. Everybody who has a clue already knows this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Snake said: Every car in this series currently with a cell is now no longer legal. Not necessarily true. This is a very large change in how fuel is measured. In the past the rule was technically "capacity", which would be the volume of the container if you were to pour it out. The new rule is fuel delivered, meaning how much your pump can suck up from fully filled (aka a pumpout test). Decent chance many cells are not able to deliver their advertised fuel volume. This would give you room to add filler neck. I think the enforcement process behind this will need some thought and description to competitors to make sure they know how to test at home the same way tech will test\enforce this. I think the ability to enforce useable fuel on track with useable fuel measurements in the pits will have challenges as well. My personal thought is that measuring delivered fuel presents some complexity that wouldn't be there if it was possible to define volume of the container instead. This is possible with fuel cells and most filler necks, since they are a box or constant diameter tube. Stock tanks present their own problem. I think this will bring more cars from the "didn't pick your car" into the "fuel starved and upset" camp. This will either speed up fuel parity conversations, help refine the value we place on fuel in VPI making more distinct (and perhaps correct) difference between fuel rich and fuel poor cars, or people will look outside the series. Edited September 1, 2021 by Black Magic 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted September 1, 2021 Administrators Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 All questions or comments to board@champcar.org please. Most of the BOD don't visit the forum or socials. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Snorman said: Everybody who has a clue already knows this. Right, so there shouldn't be much of an issue unless your running a big filler neck, or you've got a stock tank that's holding significantly more than the stated capacity. Both would be easy fixes with displacement balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Final Turn Motorsports Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 (edited) There will be cars such as Miatas that might have to put displacement balls in their STOCK tank. With a miata and a stock setup, you can squeeze almost 14.9 gallons in the tank. That is already .2 gallons over. Even if you have a stock tank, measure. If you vented it properly, you may be over. Edited September 1, 2021 by Final Turn Motorsports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, petawawarace said: Can you explain how every car with a cell will be illegal? They may need to add displacement blocks for the extra fuel in their filler neck, but that’s it. FYI : most cells don’t hold as much as they list. My 15g cell only holds 14.3gal. Lol. People spending $$ know thus and order bigger. We are already using displacement blocks. No sense in ordering a cell if it doesn't give you the most fuel legally allowed right? Sounds like you left .7 gallon on the table, we didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted September 1, 2021 Administrators Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 RVA Graphics & Wraps should be able to assist us on the expansion and contraction of fuel due to temperatures. A cold fuel system at Road Atlanta in the spring will hold more fuel than an overheated system at the VIR 24. It's not the system., but the temp of the fuel itself. So how is that going to be addressed? Do we use a correction factor based on the type of fuel you are using and the fuel temperature?https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm00129.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 1 minute ago, petawawarace said: Right, so there shouldn't be much of an issue unless your running a big filler neck, or you've got a stock tank that's holding significantly more than the stated capacity. Both would be easy fixes with displacement balls. If you have a plus 2 cell then you're screwed and will need to displace for lines, filler neck, filters, etc.. Of course, this has no impact on the BMWs that already hold 17 gallons OE and go ~2 hours on fuel, which is pretty predictable. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petawawarace Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bill Strong said: RVA Graphics & Wraps should be able to assist us on the expansion and contraction of fuel due to temperatures. A cold fuel system at Road Atlanta in the spring will hold more fuel than an overheated system at the VIR 24. It's not the system., but the temp of the fuel itself. So how is that going to be addressed? Do we use a correction factor based on the type of fuel you are using and the fuel temperature?https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm00129.html Bill, The volume of the system will not change with temperature. The amount of energy and the distance that you go on that volume of fuel will change. This will be constant across all cars racing at that time, so really shouldn't be a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted September 1, 2021 Administrators Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 but if they are over the amount? do they get DQ'ed? It would also be nice to see what the allowance is. Like +/- 1/4 liter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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