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21 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

Now I have read most of the thread. From my perspective as a team owner racing with WRL and dealing with a fuel capacity rule, the there are a few areas of concern.  Lets assume the series has a reliable way of measure the fixed volume of a fuel system, so measuring isn't one of them.

1. How do you safely get fuel out of your car at impound? 

2. How do you even do the pump out?  Does it have to be from the fuel rail? A 175lph pump pumps out 46 gallons in 1 hour.  So it takes time.  Will your battery last that long?  Will your fuel pump stay on and run, or will the ECU kill it after it primes the system?

3. Are you sure you'll be under on fuel?  The only way to know is to pump out at home.  Measuring capacity at home is not as easy as it sounds.

 

 

Will the series be paying for the fire crew to stay longer after the race and through impound?   I would not pump out entire fuel tank on 1 or multiple hot cars especially if you have to do it from the rail.   This is about safety right?   🙄

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18 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

Now I have read most of the thread. From my perspective as a team owner racing with WRL and dealing with a fuel capacity rule, the there are a few areas of concern.  Lets assume the series has a reliable way of measure the fixed volume of a fuel system, so measuring isn't one of them.

1. How do you safely get fuel out of your car at impound? 

2. How do you even do the pump out?  Does it have to be from the fuel rail? A 175lph pump pumps out 46 gallons in 1 hour.  So it takes time.  Will your battery last that long?  Will your fuel pump stay on and run, or will the ECU kill it after it primes the system?

3. Are you sure you'll be under on fuel?  The only way to know is to pump out at home.  Measuring capacity at home is not as easy as it sounds.

 

We have a dry break at the fuel rail and a jumper to keep the fuel pump on and a small battery.  We bring a power supply to power the fuel pump for the ~20 minutes or so it takes to pump out.

 

There was a WRL car that was recently pumped out with a stock tank and a stock filler that had a capacity that was ~3 gallons over manufacturer stated and they did not have a surge tank.  It was a make/model that is on the VPI list.  So even if you have a stock tank, you may not be in compliance.

Good points and I did not even think about that. I guess after race tech will now need to be at least 1-2 hours, though at the tracks it seems to be taking that long now. It will take a good 15-30 minutes to get in after the race and setup to just start that process, which can take 15-30 min on its own, though if low on fuel it should not take all that long to pump out. 

 

On My Miata NC I might be able to remove the fuel line at the rail, but I need to get a special tool for that and hope it does not break the connector/line when I do it or my weekend is over. I have a small battery and will need to bring extra batteries and jumper cables and plan for it. I will need to make sure I have an extra 3 jugs of fuel at the end of the race, hoses to run it out, battery and jumper cables. I will be testing this at home to see just how much before I go to a race and hope that I get the same results as them when it happens. I guess we all need to test this pre race and verify it all. I just wonder if I get X and at the track we get X.2 is that a DQ? Maybe we all need to be under by enough that if at the track we do not get the DQ for something tiny.

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Watching the Tuttle car being pumped out at RA it was pumped with the pump installed in the car and ran until it started pushing air. Then it sat for a minute or two and was switched back on until all agreed it was empty. It did not hurt the pump and yes it took some time. 

 

I do think Champcar may need to consider a pump for this purpose to remove any team issues with a burnt pump. 

Tech will come up with a plan and hopefully publish the process for all to understand.

 

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4 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

Will the series be paying for the fire crew to stay longer after the race and through impound?   I would not pump out entire fuel tank on 1 or multiple hot cars especially if you have to do it from the rail.   This is about safety right?   🙄

Good point and another thing I did not think about and sure other things will be brought up in lite of this. That would ironic though, no race incidents, but we burn a car and crew down while trying to pump out. When I disconnect my an fitting at the fuel rail there is always extra pressure still built up with the regulator. I will need to plan for that and maybe bring a towel or something to gather it so it does not drip down on my exhaust, which is under my engine, below the fuel rail fitting area.

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Is this now going to be a standard Champcar impound process? On jack stands, 4 wheels off, pump out? If so, fine, just let us know so we all can be prepared with all the hardware and items needed to do the pumpout and plan for it. Though, if we think we might do well it would now be good form to have all of that ready anyway.

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14 hours ago, Snorman said:

Your car has an 18.5 gallon tank and is a 4-cylinder. What's the problem?  😆

 

 

If you really want to know, my problem has nothing to do with fuel capacity of our car or any other to be honest.

 

Champcar has a rule that states filler necks should be routed in the most direct path possible. This rule is not enforced AT ALL allowing teams to put obnoxious filler necks in to gain fuel capacity.

 

Champcar tells us we need to change our system, so when doing work on our fuel system 3 years ago we had a lengthy discussion and spend money to build it EXACTLY how they wanted it. Enough so that they were pulling other teams over to show them how they wanted it done.

 

We show up to a race, make impound and look at a handful of cars with massive filler necks, watch the following day as they packed them full of fuel.

 

We see what they are doing understand why but mention something to champcar about the previous conversation we had and get an answer that doest correlate to what we had been told.

 

We get chewed on at the national championship race for packing our cell tight and having fuel in the filler neck to start the race. 

 

We say something in tech about filler necks and direct routing get an answer that is CYA we wanna keep everyone happy.

 

Champcar makes an absurd rule to force people into doing exactly what they explicitly told us they didn't want them to do because they wouldn't enforce already existing rules that are written into the existing book even after teams bring the problem to their attention. 

 

Now every car will need to carry fuel in the filler neck instead of a few. This is a massive step backwards in safety series wide.

 

If your team along with a few others had followed the rules and the intent of what they wanted we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not everyone thinks just about themselves you know. You should try it sometime. 

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8 minutes ago, 55mini said:

Watching the Tuttle car being pumped out at RA it was pumped with the pump installed in the car and ran until it started pushing air. Then it sat for a minute or two and was switched back on until all agreed it was empty. It did not hurt the pump and yes it took some time. 

 

I do think Champcar may need to consider a pump for this purpose to remove any team issues with a burnt pump. 

Tech will come up with a plan and hopefully publish the process for all to understand.

 

 

So we are instituting rules now without a plan?   We couldn't have a race gas rule that most members wanted because there was no plan/procedure/equipment.   But, this is different...  lets cut with the safety bull cookies.   Nobody is buying it. 

 

The end around on the membership is the the most disappointing aspect of this.   The series simply never learns.   How many times has this happened and how many times has it pissed off the membership.    Glad I don't have to deal with it any longer. 

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I bought this power supply.  It's a power supply I can use in the shop for various things and I also use it for pump out.  30A would probably work for most pump out applications.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00L2K263Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I bought this quick disconnect (not required, but it makes it pretty easy to pump out.)  My system is returnless, so I only needed one and I just attached it to the end of the fuel rail.  Radium does sell either half separately.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183900300582

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15 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Is this now going to be a standard Champcar impound process? On jack stands, 4 wheels off, pump out? If so, fine, just let us know so we all can be prepared with all the hardware and items needed to do the pumpout and plan for it. Though, if we think we might do well it would now be good form to have all of that ready anyway.

I doubt you will see many pumpouts. I would guess that they will only occur in blatant situations. If someone notices 20Gal going into a car thats supposed to hold 17, and they protest it. Or if Tech gets wind of this happening, maybe they will check it. I don't think you will see checks at every race. 

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14 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

If you really want to know, my problem has nothing to do with fuel capacity of our car or any other to be honest.

 

Champcar has a rule that states filler necks should be routed in the most direct path possible. This rule is not enforced AT ALL allowing teams to put obnoxious filler necks in to gain fuel capacity.

 

Champcar tells us we need to change our system, so when doing work on our fuel system 3 years ago we had a lengthy discussion and spend money to build it EXACTLY how they wanted it. Enough so that they were pulling other teams over to show them how they wanted it done.

 

We show up to a race, make impound and look at a handful of cars with massive filler necks, watch the following day as they packed them full of fuel.

 

We see what they are doing understand why but mention something to champcar about the previous conversation we had and get an answer that doest correlate to what we had been told.

 

We get chewed on at the national championship race for packing our cell tight and having fuel in the filler neck to start the race. 

 

We say something in tech about filler necks and direct routing get an answer that is CYA we wanna keep everyone happy.

 

Champcar makes an absurd rule to force people into doing exactly what they explicitly told us they didn't want them to do because they wouldn't enforce already existing rules that are written into the existing book even after teams bring the problem to their attention. 

 

Now every car will need to carry fuel in the filler neck instead of a few. This is a massive step backwards in safety series wide.

 

If your team along with a few others had followed the rules and the intent of what they wanted we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not everyone thinks just about themselves you know. You should try it sometime. 

lol...we didn't break a rule. Further, our neck is the most direct route from the fill point to the cell. It bends around the main hoop and runs a direct straight line to the cell. We had no problems at all with the petition to limit filler neck length to 36". In fact, we already planned to do it even though it would require hacking up our RR quarter panel since the height of our cell precludes using the OE fill location. I think blaming other competitors for the action of the series is a bit misguided. 

But as your post sort of indicates, the targeting/preferential treatment meted out by Tech, unwritten backdoor deals, VPI adjustments based on...whatever they're based on and now a huge change to the fuel capacity rules make it not worth it anymore. 

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Speaking of the rarity of pump outs, I'm guessing the Tuttle incident is one of the things really pushing this. That car was 1 gallon over, measuring only the cell, which obviously is a violation. However, the car only had a 7 or 8 inch long fuel fill. As Ray pointed out, he had to DQ a guy that easily could have carried the same amount, or more, of fuel in the car legally with one of the excessive fill/vent setups. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

As far as I remember there have only been 2 fuel capacity protests in impound ever. I don’t expect that to change.

I highly doubt that now. With the 2+ only rule people will be watching like hawks now. The over the top crazy were the only ones in the past that got the watch, 18.9 and putting in 21+ was just that with 5 jugs. Now it will be really easy to go to edmunds specs, look up capacity, add 2 and then see what they put in. Everyone will be able to see pretty easy.

 

What is funny is Ray has hated fuel in filler necks forever and finally got his way. Now that added a crapton of work on his end to do pump outs, measure, ect and have all that fuel flowing around crazy hot engines, which can cause the fire he was trying to avoid.

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4 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I highly doubt that now. With the 2+ only rule people will be watching like hawks now. The over the top crazy were the only ones in the past that got the watch, 18.9 and putting in 21+ was just that with 5 jugs. Now it will be really easy to go to edmunds specs, look up capacity, add 2 and then see what they put in. Everyone will be able to see pretty easy.

 

What is funny is Ray has hated fuel in filler necks forever and finally got his way. Now that added a crapton of work on his end to do pump outs, measure, ect and have all that fuel flowing around crazy hot engines, which can cause the fire he was trying to avoid.

 

I highlighted the part i dont understand.  

 

This did the opposite, it now encourages people to pack the neck full?

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Just now, Gkuhn41 said:

 

I highlighted the part i dont understand.  

 

This did the opposite, it now encourages people to pack the neck full?

A half gallon or less in the fill will be used up much more quickly than 2+ gallons in the fill/vent I'd guess is the idea. Which makes sense.

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4 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

I highlighted the part i dont understand.  

 

This did the opposite, it now encourages people to pack the neck full?

It does, or can, but depends on the car I guess, but I get your point. A car can have only 2+ gallons. My thought was the big fill neck was pushing cars above the 2+ gallons. I am not sure. I know I have a big fill neck on my Miata NC and will need to some careful and specific measuring so I have exactly what I can with my stock tank and 3" fill tube. I might need to get a smaller tube, not sure yet. Testing and figuring out here before next year.

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11 minutes ago, Snorman said:

lol...we didn't break a rule. Further, our neck is the most direct route from the fill point to the cell. It bends around the main hoop and runs a direct straight line to the cell. We had no problems at all with the petition to limit filler neck length to 36". In fact, we already planned to do it even though it would require hacking up our RR quarter panel since the height of our cell precludes using the OE fill location. I think blaming other competitors for the action of the series is a bit misguided. 

But as your post sort of indicates, the targeting/preferential treatment meted out by Tech, unwritten backdoor deals, VPI adjustments based on...whatever they're based on and now a huge change to the fuel capacity rules make it not worth it anymore. 

 

Most direct path would be to the rear fender then no?

 

Blaming competitors for a rule is 100% on point lol. Isn't this racing? don't people find grey areas and exploit them until a rule is made to keep them from doing it. Our shenanigans drive the rules, if they didn't it wouldn't be racing. 

 

Listen, you and I believe it or not are 100% on the same page with why your upset same reason our team is not happy to be honest. Im not sour at you guys or other teams who took advantage of the "direct path" rule and there were several. 

 

Just think there is a larger issue being created. Weather people think we are full of it or not for worrying about the safety aspect of it. 

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2 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

Most direct path would be to the rear fender then no?

 

Blaming competitors for a rule is 100% on point lol. Isn't this racing? don't people find grey areas and exploit them until a rule is made to keep them from doing it. Our shenanigans drive the rules, if they didn't it wouldn't be racing. 

 

Listen, you and I believe it or not are 100% on the same page with why your upset same reason our team is not happy to be honest. Im not sour at you guys or other teams who took advantage of the "direct path" rule and there were several. 

 

Just think there is a larger issue being created. Weather people think we are full of it or not for worrying about the safety aspect of it. 

I would agree that the quarter would be the a shorter distance, but there wasn't a filler length limitation (ours is ~53" BTW, we fill about 44" of it due to the angle at the top). A few things...a.) we tried to use the OE opening and due to the height of our cell, we couldn't fuel, b.) we would have had to hack up the top of the quarter panel and c.) we've seen multiple cars (at least in the southeast) crash and damage the filler neck in the quarter. If the series wanted to implement some sort of filler length rule, we'd have complied. 

I also 100% believe there are cars where they have fillers that are far outside of the "direct path", hidden or otherwise not compliant with the current rule. There was a pic of a Fox body for sale recently that seemed very egregious. 

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Regarding previous comments about 20 minute pump out and storing several jugs of hot pumped out fuel in impound:

 

Who’s finishing a race with a full tank of fuel? The only way that would happen for me is if the last 1.5 hours were red flagged! If I have to stop for fuel with 30 minutes left I’m putting in 5 gallons, not topping it off. 
 

Yes, some concerns about pumping out are valid, but let’s be real, no team who is on the podium will have finished the race anywhere near a full tank of fuel.

Edited by enginerd
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7 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

It does, or can, but depends on the car I guess, but I get your point. A car can have only 2+ gallons. My thought was the big fill neck was pushing cars above the 2+ gallons. I am not sure. I know I have a big fill neck on my Miata NC and will need to some careful and specific measuring so I have exactly what I can with my stock tank and 3" fill tube. I might need to get a smaller tube, not sure yet. Testing and figuring out here before next year.

 

 

9.10.2.1. Total fuel capacity may be verified by ChampCar via the drain and fill method. The fuel tank will be completely drained and then refilled with known amounts until fuel escapes the fill port.

 

This means if you have a fill neck you can fill with 48" of fuel  1.45gal or so?  for round numbers you can carry 15 total gallons you need to displace 1.45 gallons in the cell since your fill neck holds 1.45 gallons. By doing so and complying with the rule you will then be forced to fill the neck to carry your max amount of fuel. 

 

They made a rule that will force more teams to carry as much unsecured fuel onto the track as possible.

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21 hours ago, Clapped Out Racing said:

As a team of all professional engineers, this thread makes me sad for humanities future.

Same!

 

I am impressed that I am 5 pages in and people are name dropping IMSA and TCR to prove how much they don't understand that fuel tanks will never, not ever, grow in size materially.  Not across a 500 degree swing.

 

Bravo, all.  At least we got some beat at something...

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3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Who’s finishing a race with a full tank of fuel? The only way that would happen for me is if the last 1.5 hours were red flagged! If I have to stop for fuel with 30 minutes left I’m putting in 5 gallons, not topping it off. 
 

Yes, some concerns about pumping out are valid, but let’s be real, no team who is on the podium will have finished the race anywhere near a full tank of fuel.

 

I believe he is speaking to the need to empty the tank, refill it full, and pump it out again while cars are hot in impound.

 

I dont have a problem pumping cars out, i mean we fuel them when they are at their hottest? If we are that worried about it we put the wheels on and move the car out of the area to do the pumpout so its not in a crowded area.

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8 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

I believe he is speaking to the need to empty the tank, refill it full, and pump it out again while cars are hot in impound.

 

I dont have a problem pumping cars out, i mean we fuel them when they are at their hottest? If we are that worried about it we put the wheels on and move the car out of the area to do the pumpout so its not in a crowded area.

You didn’t read the procedure did you? The procedure is:

 

1) pump out remaining fuel

2) ChampCar fills with fuel

3) ChampCar knows how much they poured in and will rule on legality

 

There is no “pump out again”

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