Jump to content

2022 BCCR


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

You didn’t read the procedure did you? The procedure is:

 

1) pump out remaining fuel

2) ChampCar fills with fuel

3) ChampCar knows how much they poured in and will rule on legality

 

There is no “pump out again”

So the podium cars get a free tank of fuel as well as a trophy? :)

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

This means if you have a fill neck you can fill with 48" of fuel  1.45gal or so? 

1.2 gallons

A gallon = 231 cubic inches.

Volume of the filler: 

V=πr2h

V=π*(1.375)2*48

V=261 cubic inches

 

FWIW, the 36" filler neck petitions that were submitted would have allowed .9 gallons of fuel in a filler (about .2 gallons less than our neck holds). 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Snorman said:

1.2 gallons

A gallon = 231 cubic inches.

Volume of the filler: 

V=πr2h

V=π*(1.375)2*48

V=261 cubic inches

 

FWIW, the 36" filler neck petitions that were submitted would have allowed .9 gallons of fuel in a filler (about .2 gallons less than our neck holds). 

 

But what temp is the tube? The 48" long tube could hold more than 1.2 gallons if it were cold out!

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff

Does the fuel capacity count the surge tank also or is a surge tank an extra .5 if used.

 

If you have as surge tank you pump out all the fuel, then CC fills it up so no issue as you are not refilling the surge at that point.

 

If we do a pump out and measure the fuel coming out then there could be an issue as the surge tank will pump out .5 gallons more, depending on where and how you connect to the fuel system. Some surge tanks are external, well most I would think, but some are internal at a fuel cell. In that case there is no way to bypass the surge pump out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, BollingerChump said:

But what temp is the tube? The 48" long tube could hold more than 1.2 gallons if it were cold out!

Whether it's absolute zero or I just grabbed it from Death Valley there is no difference. 😆

 

But to be fair, I don't think that was necessarily the argument being made previously. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It says surge is not included.

 

It doesn't say if .53 gallons will be subtracted off if pumped out via the fuel rail.

 

Actually, it doesn't say where it is pumped out. Run a line off the lift pump to avoid the surge issue?

1 minute ago, Snorman said:

But to be fair, I don't think that was necessarily the argument being made previously. 

It wasn't, but that won't end it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, BollingerChump said:

Same!

 

I am impressed that I am 5 pages in and people are name dropping IMSA and TCR to prove how much they don't understand that fuel tanks will never, not ever, grow in size materially.  Not across a 500 degree swing.

 

Bravo, all.  At least we got some beat at something...

So please enlightening me since I am such an idiot.  

 

I set my tank here in Florida to a measured VOLUME of fuel.  The ambient temperature outside is 95°F.  I set my tank and filler neck to hold 14.7gallons.  

 

Now I go race at Road America and the outside ambient temperature is 65°.  Someone says I am over fuel.  The series fill jugs to a Measured Volume of 14.7.  Guess what...  I will fail.  I will be closer to 15 gallons poured in.  

 

It is math.  I posted videos on how volume is effected by temperature.  At no point in time was I ever talking about super heating or cooling fuel at track.  Or tank size changing.  Only the volume of the fuel itself.

Edited by Final Turn Motorsports
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

So please enlightening me since I am such an idiot.  

 

I set my tank hear in Florida to a measured VOLUME of fuel.  The ambient temperature outside is 95°F.  I set my tank and filler neck to hold 14.7gallons.  

 

Now I go race at Road America and the outside ambient temperature is 65°.  Someone says I am over fuel.  The series fill jugs to a Measured Volume of 14.7.  Guess what...  I will fail.  I will be closer to 15 gallons poured in.  

 

It is math.  I posted videos on how volume is effected by temperature.  At no point in time was I ever talking about super heating or cooling fuel at track.  Or tank size changing.  Only the volume of the fuel itself.

 

I am totally impressed, nearly 12 pages explaining this and yet here we are.

 

In your scenario, in order to fail the test the fuel used in the measurement would have to be cooled to lower than the 65* ambient temp *before* the test.  By quite a bit I might add.  Then, after being put in your tank, it would have to warm to ambient; now you would have 15+ gallons as it expanded while gaining temp.  This is easily avoided by making sure the test fuel wasn't in a freezer for an hour before it was checked.

 

I understand, density vs. volume is hard. 

 

But there's some respite: more than one trained engineers (and others) racing in this series and active on this thread have explained it every which way from Sunday!  If after their testimony you don't believe, I guess you have to take it on the faith in Physics..

Edited by BollingerChump
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

Setting a tank in 95° weather will not be the same as setting in 65°

The claim is that at a race in which ambient temp is 65*. Champcar International is gonna heat up the 65* gas they use to check your tank to a temp *greater* than 95* in order to DQ you?

 

WTF are we doing putting gas in ovens?!?

Edited by BollingerChump
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

I am not an idiot. 

Screenshot_20210902-112804_Chrome.jpg

Never said you were.

 

But you are woefully incorrect.

The temperature in your chart only applies if there is a change in temp.  There is no meaningful change in temp between when they fill your car at impound and when they empty it.  We are talking 10 mins or so, and I would have to assume the cars are significantly cooled down compared to racing temps before they start pumping gas all over.

I am curious: what is the theory on how 65* gas should be heated enough to over fill your cell set at 95*

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, BollingerChump said:

Never said you were.

 

But you are woefully incorrect.

The temperature in your chart only applies if there is a change in temp.  There is no meaningful change in temp between when they fill your car at impound and when they empty it.  We are talking 10 mins or so, and I would have to assume the cars are significantly cooled down compared to racing temps before they start pumping gas all over.

I am curious: what is the theory on how 65* gas should be heated enough to over fill your cell set at 95*

Because at 95°, fuel is expanded compared to 65°.  If you take the weight of the 2 measured volumes, it will be different.  Hence allowing me to make my tank fit more fuel.  In 95° it will be at 14.7 pump in or out.  The same exact car and tank on the following weekend goes to Wisconsin...  temp is 30° different.  The amount of fuel I can put into the exact same container will be more as the volume of fuel would have changed. Based on temp and math

Edited by Final Turn Motorsports
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Regarding previous comments about 20 minute pump out and storing several jugs of hot pumped out fuel in impound:

 

Who’s finishing a race with a full tank of fuel? The only way that would happen for me is if the last 1.5 hours were red flagged! If I have to stop for fuel with 30 minutes left I’m putting in 5 gallons, not topping it off. 
 

Yes, some concerns about pumping out are valid, but let’s be real, no team who is on the podium will have finished the race anywhere near a full tank of fuel.

 

 

Oh, so we're only pumping out what we end the race with.  Nothing to worry about for anyone then.   Carry on.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...