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2022 BCCR


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46 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

It's not just about safety and enforceability.  It simplifies the rule, and puts everyone on the same field.

 

Instead of cells get +2 gallons + filler neck, and stock tank cars getting whatever additional they can from vent mods, + filler neck, everybody just gets +2.  Which means to do a pump out/fill there's no math or neck removal, and everybody is the same.

 

IMO it's the way the rule was intended all along.  Quit playing the victim already, and make the car legal, or take your ball and go home.

My thoughts on this exactly, but now I've got to size up my filler tube so I can get 12 gallons in the little GTI! It's good for Two Idiot's and a Garage!

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6 minutes ago, Racer28173 said:

PLEASE.  No more debate about the density of fuel or the people posting.  An important debate is getting derailed by a display of hard headed ness.  

 

First you say no more debate about density, then you imply that some of us have a head density that's higher than most.

 

I'll have you know the density of my skull is average or slightly above average at best.

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2 hours ago, Ian said:

 

It's not just about safety and enforceability.  It simplifies the rule, and puts everyone on the same field.

 

Instead of cells get +2 gallons + filler neck, and stock tank cars getting whatever additional they can from vent mods, + filler neck, everybody just gets +2.  Which means to do a pump out/fill there's no math or neck removal, and everybody is the same.

 

IMO it's the way the rule was intended all along.  Quit playing the victim already, and make the car legal, or take your ball and go home.

Of course you think like this, you have a 20 gallon tank. It's pretty easy to identify those who 100% support this rule. This is a gift for anybody who already runs a car that can go 2 hours on fuel, like you. 

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36 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Of course you think like this, you have a 20 gallon tank. It's pretty easy to identify those who 100% support this rule. This is a gift for anybody who already runs a car that can go 2 hours on fuel, like you. 

I’ve got a 13 Gallon tank.  I support this rule.  
It seems to me that the ones that don’t support it were pushing the limits.  
 

I can 100% see your point though. If you are low on fuel, this hurts.  If your not, it’s not a big deal.  But with this consistency in fuel capacity, in theory we should be able to alter VPIs methodically going forward.  You couldn’t do that with the various sizes of factory tanks (ballooned etc) and huge filler necks.   
 

Hopefully that’s what happens going forward.  

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13 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Of course you think like this, you have a 20 gallon tank. It's pretty easy to identify those who 100% support this rule. This is a gift for anybody who already runs a car that can go 2 hours on fuel, like you. 

I get this hurts you because your car is fuel limited and you were eeking out every once of extra fuel in the fill neck and vent line, but a more simpler consistent enforcement was needed here. My hope is that once a baseline is established they can go back and lower your VPI or revisit fuel points options.
Think of it this way, if your car had 3.5 extra gallons and someone else only had the 2.0gal because they had no fill neck on a cell, and someone with a stock tank managed to get 2.5gal, well the might raise the VPI because they see the guy with 3.5gal dominating every race, once we get a more leveler playing field more accurate VPI adjustments can be made.

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Good rule but the fuel difference need to be addressed somehow, either VPI changes or somekind of fuel for VPI scheme.

 

Has anyone calculated what how many points a gallon of fuel should cost?

 

How much faster you need to go for an extra fuel stop and how much points you need to be that much faster etc, etc...

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4 minutes ago, morganf said:

My hope is that once a baseline is established they can go back and lower your VPI or revisit fuel points options...once we get a more leveler playing field more accurate VPI adjustments can be made.

 

9 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

But with this consistency in fuel capacity, in theory we should be able to alter VPIs methodically going forward...Hopefully that’s what happens going forward.  

 

4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Good rule but the fuel difference need to be addressed somehow, either VPI changes or somekind of fuel for VPI scheme.

 

Has anyone calculated what how many points a gallon of fuel should cost?

This will take years to figure out. The series won't be able to simply adjust VPIs with any degree of certainty, nor will it be able to determine how to value fuel (and whether that value should based on the platform, base VPI, etc.) for several BCCR cycles. It would be a total sh*tshow to set a VPI, then upon considering the results, change it midseason. I would guess to implement any fuel-for-points or fuel-based-VPI adjustments, it would take 3 cycles to nail it down. 

Have you been watching what the BOD has tried in the last month? 

After this, what's next?

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48 minutes ago, Snorman said:

 

 

This will take years to figure out. The series won't be able to simply adjust VPIs with any degree of certainty, nor will it be able to determine how to value fuel (and whether that value should based on the platform, base VPI, etc.) for several BCCR cycles. It would be a total sh*tshow to set a VPI, then upon considering the results, change it midseason. I would guess to implement any fuel-for-points or fuel-based-VPI adjustments, it would take 3 cycles to nail it down. 

Have you been watching what the BOD has tried in the last month? 

After this, what's next?

 

They have 28 days :) 

1st October new VPI out, maybe everyone with <16.9 gallons gets a 25% VPI reduction.....(a joke)

 

It kinds sucks for some teams, in 2022 they will have to make an extra fuel stop.

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2 hours ago, Snorman said:

Of course you think like this, you have a 20 gallon tank. It's pretty easy to identify those who 100% support this rule. This is a gift for anybody who already runs a car that can go 2 hours on fuel, like you. 

 

We can barely make 2 hours at BIR, and we struggle to go 1:45 at Road America.  We're not as fuel rich as you claim as the car is heavy and thirsty.  It also carries a bunch of penalty laps not including our oil cooler which the engine won't survive without.

 

With the playing field now level between cell and stock tank cars, the BOD can do a better job fine tuning VPIs to bring parity between small and big tank cars.

 

Year after year you guys keep threatening to take all your toys to WRL, and yet here you are lobbying for the status quo.  I agree that WRL does certain things right, but they're no longer a mid level series, and the amount of money now in the series has created a new set of problems.  I'm very cautiously watching the level of contact over there hoping it doesn't reach Ferrari Challenge, and other "gentleman" series levels of carnage.

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14 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

I agree that WRL does certain things right, but they're no longer a mid level series, and the amount of money now in the series has created a new set of problems.  I'm very cautiously watching the level of contact over there hoping it doesn't reach Ferrari Challenge, and other "gentleman" series levels of carnage.

So this is a common theme among rich guy series? In the WRL race I did I was astounded at the amount of contact. RJ seems like he's really trying to reduce the number of wrecks, but things are bad at the moment.

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19 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

We can barely make 2 hours at BIR, and we struggle to go 1:45 at Road America.  We're not as fuel rich as you claim as the car is heavy and thirsty.  It also carries a bunch of penalty laps not including our oil cooler which the engine won't survive without.

 

With the playing field now level between cell and stock tank cars, the BOD can do a better job fine tuning VPIs to bring parity between small and big tank cars.

 

Year after year you guys keep threatening to take all your toys to WRL, and yet here you are lobbying for the status quo.  I agree that WRL does certain things right, but they're no longer a mid level series, and the amount of money now in the series has created a new set of problems.  I'm very cautiously watching the level of contact over there hoping it doesn't reach Ferrari Challenge, and other "gentleman" series levels of carnage.

You have a 20 gallon tank in a 260 hp, RWD car with an outstanding chassis (as far as CCES goes). 

"Year after year" is bullsh*t. Last year, out of the blue, we got a 50 point VPI increase. When we inquired, literally nobody could tell us where it originated. Two weeks later we stood in impound at RA on Day 1 only to have the same car we raced for 3 seasons have 25 points inexplicably added to it by National Tech. And it was for items we claimed and showed to Tech in 2018, 19 and 20. How's that for being targeted? So yeah, last year, looking at a SEVENTY FIVE point VPI increase, we planned to leave. National Tech got fir...err...resigned, and the BOD reversed our increase to 25 points and we stayed. 

But the issue here is beyond us. It's always drama. Last year it was VPI. This year it's fuel. Next year, mark my words, it'll be something else that somebody is targeting...like tires, or horsepower caps, or whatever. An example I gave earlier ITT is hood vents. Over a three year period they've had three different values...material, 2 points and now free in 2022. 

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7 minutes ago, Grant said:

So this is a common theme among rich guy series? In the WRL race I did I was astounded at the amount of contact. RJ seems like he's really trying to reduce the number of wrecks, but things are bad at the moment.

When we raced WRL two years ago it was really good. Over two days at Road Atlanta, it was pretty clean racing, even in the rain. 

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1 minute ago, Snorman said:

"Year after year" is bullsh*t. Last year, out of the blue, we got a 50 point VPI increase. When we inquired, literally nobody could tell us where it originated. Two weeks later we stood in impound at RA on Day 1 only to have the same car we raced for 3 seasons have 25 points inexplicably added to it by National Tech. And it was for items we claimed and showed to Tech in 2018, 19 and 20. How's that for being targeted? So yeah, last year, looking at a SEVENTY FIVE point VPI increase, we planned to leave. National Tech got fir...err...resigned, and the BOD reversed our increase to 25 points and we stayed. 

But the issue here is beyond us. It's always drama. Last year it was VPI. This year it's fuel. Next year, mark my words, it'll be something else that somebody is targeting...like tires, or horsepower caps, or whatever. An example I gave earlier ITT is hood vents. Over a three year period they've had three different values...material, 2 points and now free in 2022. 

 

Ever read the story about Icarus?

 

I'm not saying all or even many of those decisions were the right ones, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Whether you're getting picked on because the car is fast, or because you stepped on someone's toes is another matter entirely.

 

4 minutes ago, Grant said:

So this is a common theme among rich guy series? In the WRL race I did I was astounded at the amount of contact. RJ seems like he's really trying to reduce the number of wrecks, but things are bad at the moment.

 

It'll always be common is rich guy series.  Rich boys (and girls) with money and insurance, driving someone else's race car have very little on the line.  I used to watch Ferrari challenge, and a lot of races are a joke there is so much carnage.

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I raised this point earlier in the thread but I think it got buried by many learned people debating the volume of a fixed-size tank.

 

Would an increase in the driver stint time limit (2 hours to 3 hours) and/or a decrease in the fuel stop time restriction (5 minutes to 4 minutes) help to give some parity back to the teams who are currently fuel limited? Those are example numbers and could be tweaked depending on some data, but here is much kerfuffle about the ability to make 2 hours being the deciding factor in a race. If that limitation were relaxed it could give back some flexibility on strategy to fuel-limited cars and reduce the overall impact of an extra stop.

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1 minute ago, Snorman said:

When we raced WRL two years ago it was really good. Over two days at Road Atlanta, it was pretty clean racing, even in the rain. 

 

Times have changed.  WRL is aiming upmarket and a lot of world class level endurance cars are showing up and the gentlemen drivers that follow them.

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5 minutes ago, Ian said:

 

Times have changed.  WRL is aiming upmarket and a lot of world class level endurance cars are showing up and the gentlemen drivers that follow them.


I think I jumped back to ChampCar just at the right time. We ran WRL in 15/16 and won the overall series title in 2016. They were trying to go up market at the time, and were not pleased with our Honda Civic winning. Since then, they have really accomplished their goal.......they have some HUGE $$$$ racing now. No thanks! 
 

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6 minutes ago, Ian said:

I'm not saying all or even many of those decisions were the right ones, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Whether you're getting picked on because the car is fast, or because you stepped on someone's toes is another matter entirely.

But it shouldn't really matter, should it? If a PHB is 10 points, and everybody in the series has paid 10 points for it for years, how it that National Tech after three years tells us it's 25 (just for us)? How is it that nobody knew anything about a VPI increase that just showed up on the 2021 list? Once it was considered, it was partially reversed. To quote a BOD member, "I guarantee you the Board never talked about this. This was some benevolent dictator stuff." 

If your team was being targeted, wouldn't you consider leaving too? 

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13 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

I think I jumped back to ChampCar just at the right time. We ran WRL in 15/16 and won the overall series title in 2016. They were trying to go up market at the time, and were not pleased with our Honda Civic winning. Since then, they have really accomplished their goal.......they have some HUGE $$$$ racing now. No thanks! 

Sure the money's big, but they aren't very quick. Contact aside, I don't think running costs would be higher than ChampCar. Very few people prep rental cars to win. I think it'd be hard or impossible to beat the NP01s in GTO, but I think those are going to get adjusted somehow.

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22 minutes ago, Grant said:

Sure the money's big, but they aren't very quick. Contact aside, I don't think running costs would be higher than ChampCar. Very few people prep rental cars to win. I think it'd be hard or impossible to beat the NP01s in GTO, but I think those are going to get adjusted somehow.

Cost to race isn’t high, cost to win anything but gp3 is high. 

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20 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Cost to race isn’t high, cost to win anything but gp3 is high. 

This was the GP1 FTD at Road Atlanta this year, and quite a bit faster than the other GP1 cars:
 

 

Their power is obviously pretty good owing to the rules, but cornering speeds are not. WRL is mostly heavy strut-equipped cars. IMO a well-done ChampCar of the fuel-limited variety (like a Miata, MK or Crowd Control Mustang, or one of Troy's crazy creations) should be around GP1 times. Though Mustangs in WRL get screwed by pure weight / power classing.

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26 minutes ago, Rapido said:

I raised this point earlier in the thread but I think it got buried by many learned people debating the volume of a fixed-size tank.

 

Would an increase in the driver stint time limit (2 hours to 3 hours) and/or a decrease in the fuel stop time restriction (5 minutes to 4 minutes) help to give some parity back to the teams who are currently fuel limited? Those are example numbers and could be tweaked depending on some data, but here is much kerfuffle about the ability to make 2 hours being the deciding factor in a race. If that limitation were relaxed it could give back some flexibility on strategy to fuel-limited cars and reduce the overall impact of an extra stop.

 

so for an 8 hr race, 3 stops vs 4 stops.

 

The 4 minute pit stop likely gets only part of a lap back at best vs 5. 3 is maybe getting close to 1 of those back. but still not equal to the ability to go the fuel 2hrs (or 1:55 and change every single time).  still have to find 4 min of ground to make up, or 2 laps on track with a 2min average lap time.  

 

depending on length of the race, it could be 1 stop or multiple more. so yeah 1 min or even 2 vs the lost time really hurts. 

 

depending on how this is implemented, i can see it still not catching everyone that can find ways to fill over OEM +2. unless they are going to do the test multiple times in different orientations each time. level fill vs tilled is already a known difference in getting the last bit to go in the tank vs leaving a bubble of air.

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3 minutes ago, Grant said:

This was the GP1 FTD at Road Atlanta this year, and quite a bit faster than the other GP1 cars:
 

 

Their power is obviously pretty good owing to the rules, but cornering speeds are not. WRL is mostly heavy strut-equipped cars. A well-done ChampCar of the not-fuel-limited variety (like a Miata, Mustang, or one of Troy's crazy creations) should be around GP1 times. Though Mustangs in WRL get screwed by pure weight / power classing.

But, worth noting FTD ≠ P1

image.png.b8d9f689becd24c800717db5bb8640c0.png

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