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2022 BCCR


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5 minutes ago, Grant said:

This was the GP1 FTD at Road Atlanta this year, and quite a bit faster than the other GP1 cars:
 

 

Their power is obviously pretty good owing to the rules, but cornering speeds are not. WRL is mostly heavy strut-equipped cars. IMO a well-done ChampCar of the fuel-limited variety (like a Miata, MK or Crowd Control Mustang, or one of Troy's crazy creations) should be around GP1 times. Though Mustangs in WRL get screwed by pure weight / power classing.

 

GP1 cars gets 17 gallons minimum fuel if they want, pretty good rule! Makes it possible for Miatas and other cheap cars to be competitive.

(A 2.5 duratec 210whp swapped NC with 17 gallons and good suspension would be a fun car?)

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1 hour ago, Grant said:

Sure the money's big, but they aren't very quick. Contact aside, I don't think running costs would be higher than ChampCar. Very few people prep rental cars to win. I think it'd be hard or impossible to beat the NP01s in GTO, but I think those are going to get adjusted somehow.


In order to have consistent pit stops under a minute, you need to spend more money. We were well under a minute and it took a good bit of effort and some $$ to get that all working. 

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9 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:

In order to have consistent pit stops under a minute, you need to spend more money. We were well under a minute and it took a good bit of effort and some $$ to get that all working. 

True, and you also need a real crew to fuel during driver changes. Whereas me and my one co-driver once won a ChampCar race with only various volunteers to hold a fire extinguisher.

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57 minutes ago, Andrew D Johnson said:


In order to have consistent pit stops under a minute, you need to spend more money. We were well under a minute and it took a good bit of effort and some $$ to get that all working. 

 

That is an excellent point! The fueling setups during WRL is much more $$ than some dude holding hunsaker 

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Just now, turbogrill said:

That is an excellent point! The fueling setups during WRL is much more $$ than some dude holding hunsaker 

Ehhh... it's not the jug as much as doing other things which allow you to take steps of a normal pit stop. For instance: install a TPMS system and you don't need to check tire pressures in a stop, you can just have a guy run out to 1 or 2 tires and let a second of air out of each because the driver has relayed to the pits what the pressures are.

 

Not as helpful in ChampCar because you have the time to spend 1 minute on tire pressures without going over.

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12 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Ehhh... it's not the jug as much as doing other things which allow you to take steps of a normal pit stop. For instance: install a TPMS system and you don't need to check tire pressures in a stop, you can just have a guy run out to 1 or 2 tires and let a second of air out of each because the driver has relayed to the pits what the pressures are.

 

Not as helpful in ChampCar because you have the time to spend 1 minute on tire pressures without going over.

 

I was more thinking the 25 people you have working for you :)

 

You would have to have a cell in WRL I think? That is a lot of money and maybe might not be beneficial for all cars.

 

Edited by turbogrill
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WRL fueling is a Hunsaker with a dry break attachment. You can modify stock tanks and use auxiliary tanks to meet your maximum fuel limit, so there's less of a need for a cell.

Though I'd use dry breaks in Champ anyway, as they're safer and less messy.

 

The lack of minimum pit stop times and the lack of stint length limits is what makes WRL more demanding (on drivers, cars, crews, etc.) IMO. Not the speed of the cars themselves. There are big downsides to WRL's rules here and it's a good thing Champ has stint limits and minimum fueling times.

 

The power / weight classing actually allows greater reliability / lower cost, because you can pick an extremely reliable motor, transmission, etc. and then detune it.

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The advantage for a car that can go two hours on fuel loses that advantage during a seven hour race. The faster cars with 1:45 in fuel gets the advantage. This year there are 25 scheduled seven hour races & 19 eight hour races. So who has the better odds. I don't mind the new fuel rule but it should of come through a petition or at least discussed with the Membership and the Technical Advisory Committee. 

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28 minutes ago, hotrod said:

The advantage for a car that can go two hours on fuel loses that advantage during a seven hour race. The faster cars with 1:45 in fuel gets the advantage. This year there are 25 scheduled seven hour races & 19 eight hour races. So who has the better odds. I don't mind the new fuel rule but it should of come through a petition or at least discussed with the Membership and the Technical Advisory Committee. 

I completely disagree, big tank cars have a massive advantage at 7 hour races also. The car that can go 2 hours on fuel can go a full 2 hours and wait for the yellows and has a huge window and huge advantage. This lengthens pit stop windows by a massive factor. 

 

7 hours

first stop window 1-2 hours. You have a hour window up front. If you go 2 full hours you will have an hour window from hour 3-4, and so on. Even if you pit 30 min early you still have a huge window of when you can pit.

 

With a car that can do 1:45, you have a 30 min window and if you pit early you set your day already.

 

Example. At PIRC, first stint, even with yellows in the first 45 min, we could only go like 1:48, we ran out and pitted, went back out. At 1:56 pace car came out. All cars with big fuel tanks pitted and only had one lap while we pitted and had 3. We finished a lap down and were fast, but could not make up two laps on the big tank cars. They won because of their big tank advantage that day.

Edited by MR2 Biohazard
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1 minute ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I completely disagree, big tank cars have a massive advantage at 7 hour races also. The car that can go 2 hours on fuel can go a full 2 hours and wait for the yellows and has a huge window and huge advantage. This lengthens pit stop windows by a massive factor. 

 

7 hours

first stop window 1-2 hours. You have a hour window up front. If you go 2 full hours you will have an hour window from hour 3-4, and so on. Even if you pit 30 min early you still have a huge window of when you can pit.

 

With a car that can do 1:45, you have a 30 min window and if you pit early you set your day already.

 

Example. At PIRC, first stint, even with yellows in the first 45 min, we could only go like 1:48, we ran out and pitted, went back out. At 1:56 pace car came out. All cars with big fuel tanks pitted and only had one lap while we pitted and had 3. We finished a lap down and were fast, but could not make up two laps on the big tank cars. They won because of their big tank advantage that day.

100% correct. And the 1:45 target is arbitrary and discounts many cars that can't go 1:45 on fuel. 

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6 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I completely disagree, big tank cars have a massive advantage at 7 hour races also. The car that can go 2 hours on fuel can go a full 2 hours and wait for the yellows and has a huge window and huge advantage. This lengthens pit stop windows by a massive factor. 

 

7 hours

first stop window 1-2 hours. You have a hour window up front. If you go 2 full hours you will have an hour window from hour 3-4, and so on. Even if you pit 30 min early you still have a huge window of when you can pit.

 

With a car that can do 1:45, you have a 30 min window and if you pit early you set your day already.

 

Example. At PIRC, first stint, even with yellows in the first 45 min, we could only go like 1:48, we ran out and pitted, went back out. At 1:56 pace car came out. All cars with big fuel tanks pitted and only had one lap while we pitted and had 3. We finished a lap down and were fast, but could not make up two laps on the big tank cars. They won because of their big tank advantage that day.

Big tank cars have an advantage no matter the race length 7-8-10-12-14-24 because of the same reason yellows. Should there be points added to big tank cars? 18-20-22-24 gallons? A car that can go two hours usually has slower lap times while the faster cars are just that and can make up the track time because of their speed even tho making an extra stop. Which gives both cars a chance at the end of the race. 

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4 hours ago, hotrod said:

Big tank cars have an advantage no matter the race length 7-8-10-12-14-24 because of the same reason yellows. Should there be points added to big tank cars? 18-20-22-24 gallons? A car that can go two hours usually has slower lap times while the faster cars are just that and can make up the track time because of their speed even tho making an extra stop. Which gives both cars a chance at the end of the race. 

You are kidding me right now, right? You have to be if you are on the forum reading these messages. The big tank cars can go as fast as the slower tank cars and if a smaller tank car goes faster they get their vpi increased. Did you not see the Maita NC VPI debacle. The entire issue is that the smaller tank car set a faster FTD than the bigger tank car and gets a VPI increase because of it. If you missed all that there a multiple threads with thousands of posts.

 

The big take away is that we all need to watch the FTD times from now and never ever, under any circumstance, ever ever, I mean never ever ever ever ever, set a FTD faster than a big tank car or you will get a VPI increase. That is the entire point of this thread is that smaller tank cars take yet another hit in Champcar with fuel.

 

BTW- I do not disagree with the 2+ gallon rule and it might hurt me a bit, but I could stomach it much better if it was done differently, over time, with questions addressed and answered. I can see it being fair to all of done right. I put ideas forth, get bashed because I did not think about perspectives I did not know about. I hope I learned from that and would have a process for bold big ideas as such. 

 

The real issues I see with it.

1- Timing- You need to give people warning and this last minute add to the rules, not good.

2- There was not a petition on it and I thought rule changes as such should be that to follow a process

3- Did not think about logistics of how it will be dealt with

4- We are member run organization- where was the members feedback.

5- Who does it help

6- Who does it hurt

7- Is this a good move for all of Champcar long term

8- Will it make teams go away, if yes, how many, can we afford that

9- Are there better options that would be fair for all!!! With member feedback I bet we all could come up with something better.

10- Did we solicit for better options and ideas from members? Kindoff #9, but important.

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14 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I completely disagree, big tank cars have a massive advantage

I shouldn't, but I'm going to anyway..........   Why on earth did you choose to build another car that does not have this, in your words, massive advantage?   

 

I agree going 2 hours is an advantage.

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10 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

You are kidding me right now, right? You have to be if you are on the forum reading these messages. The big tank cars can go as fast as the slower tank cars and if a smaller tank car goes faster they get their vpi increased. Did you not see the Maita NC VPI debacle. The entire issue is that the smaller tank car set a faster FTD than the bigger tank car and gets a VPI increase because of it. If you missed all that there a multiple threads with thousands of posts.

 

The big take away is that we all need to watch the FTD times from now and never ever, under any circumstance, ever ever, I mean never ever ever ever ever, set a FTD faster than a big tank car or you will get a VPI increase. That is the entire point of this thread is that smaller tank cars take yet another hit in Champcar with fuel.

 

BTW- I do not disagree with the 2+ gallon rule and it might hurt me a bit, but I could stomach it much better if it was done differently, over time, with questions addressed and answered. I can see it being fair to all of done right. I put ideas forth, get bashed because I did not think about perspectives I did not know about. I hope I learned from that and would have a process for bold big ideas as such. 

 

The real issues I see with it.

1- Timing- You need to give people warning and this last minute add to the rules, not good.

2- There was not a petition on it and I thought rule changes as such should be that to follow a process

3- Did not think about logistics of how it will be dealt with

4- We are member run organization- where was the members feedback.

5- Who does it help

6- Who does it hurt

7- Is this a good move for all of Champcar long term

8- Will it make teams go away, if yes, how many, can we afford that

9- Are there better options that would be fair for all!!! With member feedback I bet we all could come up with something better.

10- Did we solicit for better options and ideas from members? Kindoff #9, but important.

I hope your perception that the Little Tank Cars (LTC) get picked on more that the Big Tank Cars (BTC) is wrong because if you are correct there needs to be a wholesale change in the way rules are written.

Speaking solely on this fuel capacity rule the LTC  are the ones that have been "Creative" with their fuel systems to gain capacity. Fillers & vents. The Board of Directors felt this to be unsafe and decided to make a change. I don't agree with that reason but they made the choice. Therefore your saying the LTC are being singled out again.

Forever the vent line maximum size was 3/4 of an inch, seams reasonable. This year it went to no limit in size. How did that get pushed through? This helped to get more capacity. 

There needs to be a sort of Balance of Performance with the BTC that are fast. I agree it's an advantage. 

Do I think a STC should be allowed to have more that 2 extra gallon of fuel....No.

Do I think a BTC should have it's fuel capacity reduced.....Yes. It's much more effective than changing a VPI (these cars are already fast) and adding displacement balls is easy & cheap.  

 I agree with your 10 talking points. The fuel capacity rule is not the only one that's been implemented surprisingly over the last couple years.

Troy I'm going to run for the Board again & would appreciate a nomination & vote from you. My ID number is 014806. :) 

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11 minutes ago, hotrod said:

I hope your perception that the Little Tank Cars (LTC) get picked on more that the Big Tank Cars (BTC) is wrong because if you are correct there needs to be a wholesale change in the way rules are written.

Speaking solely on this fuel capacity rule the LTC  are the ones that have been "Creative" with their fuel systems to gain capacity. Fillers & vents. The Board of Directors felt this to be unsafe and decided to make a change. I don't agree with that reason but they made the choice. Therefore your saying the LTC are being singled out again.

Forever the vent line maximum size was 3/4 of an inch, seams reasonable. This year it went to no limit in size. How did that get pushed through? This helped to get more capacity. 

There needs to be a sort of Balance of Performance with the BTC that are fast. I agree it's an advantage. 

Do I think a STC should be allowed to have more that 2 extra gallon of fuel....No.

Do I think a BTC should have it's fuel capacity reduced.....Yes. It's much more effective than changing a VPI (these cars are already fast) and adding displacement balls is easy & cheap.  

 I agree with your 10 talking points. The fuel capacity rule is not the only one that's been implemented surprisingly over the last couple years.

Troy I'm going to run for the Board again & would appreciate a nomination & vote from you. My ID number is 014806. :) 

The vent line doesnt make much/any difference unless you dumping a 5 gallon can in 7 seconds.   We can dump a 5 gallon can in 25s with a 3/8” vent line.  

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11 minutes ago, hotrod said:

I hope your perception that the Little Tank Cars (LTC) get picked on more that the Big Tank Cars (BTC) is wrong because if you are correct there needs to be a wholesale change in the way rules are written.

Speaking solely on this fuel capacity rule the LTC  are the ones that have been "Creative" with their fuel systems to gain capacity. Fillers & vents. The Board of Directors felt this to be unsafe and decided to make a change. I don't agree with that reason but they made the choice. Therefore your saying the LTC are being singled out again.

Forever the vent line maximum size was 3/4 of an inch, seams reasonable. This year it went to no limit in size. How did that get pushed through? This helped to get more capacity. 

There needs to be a sort of Balance of Performance with the BTC that are fast. I agree it's an advantage. 

Do I think a STC should be allowed to have more that 2 extra gallon of fuel....No.

Do I think a BTC should have it's fuel capacity reduced.....Yes. It's much more effective than changing a VPI (these cars are already fast) and adding displacement balls is easy & cheap.  

 I agree with your 10 talking points. The fuel capacity rule is not the only one that's been implemented surprisingly over the last couple years.

Troy I'm going to run for the Board again & would appreciate a nomination & vote from you. My ID number is 014806. :) 

little tank cars needed to be creative to just have a hope of doing well against big tank cars. That advantage is being hurt now. I will do some research on the winners of races and tank size from last races to see if those teams that won went 2 hours or not at some point in the race. That should be good data to do.

 

BTW- This rule does not affect saftey at all. It will make people still full up their fill tubes and all as much as before and maybe more now. They will still do it, maybe with a shorter full tube, maybe, but they will all be full.

 

It is obvious you do not think the adjustment and rule is a bad thing.

 

You want on the board, have at it and enjoy. We can see how you feel about this rule that hurts a huge portion of the club. If you feel that way you do not have my vote, that is for sure.

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1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

I shouldn't, but I'm going to anyway..........   Why on earth did you choose to build another car that does not have this, in your words, massive advantage?   

 

I agree going 2 hours is an advantage.

That is a great question. I have had MR2's forever and know them well so I am a gluten for punishment there. I accept that and knew I would need to build it fast as hell to make up for the lost extra pit stop most of the time. I had two MR2's for a bit, but things change.

 

On the Miata NC I had this one as a daily driver for 5 years. When COVID hit I switched to working from home and drove it 2 or 3 times in 6-8 months. The rear glass and top got ripped by a large branch and instead of fixing it I decided to make it into a race car at the same time Bio1 failed, yet gain, at PIRC. The old girl was on borrowed time for years as is with all the wrecks, 100+ races, 2000+ wheel to wheel hours. She had and engine issue or wiring issue and the issues kept piling up. I really had to replace her. I took all the safety items out (seat, harness, radios, mirrors, ect)  and the wheels and tires fit the Miata NC. It kindoff just happened. The cost to build the Miata NC was not high at all since I had almost all the safety items and wheels and tires. I looked the VPI points it had, saw it could be competitive, thought not go 2 hours on fuel, but felt it was still a good platform.  I also picked the Miata NC thinking it would be a very reliable alternative to the MR2 I had and was the main focus. After my MR2 has failed at almost every race for the last 2 years with a DNF I am a bit over it, to say the least. I built the Miata NC to be reliable and fast enough to do well. I did not go crazy like Grant with weight and that single focus so I am sure I will not be close to his speed, but thinking with luck, good driving it should be a top 5 car.

 

I have looked at the VPI list and see a few cars that would dominate. We talked about building a specific one, we can all it car X, I have it all planned out and was ready to go. It would go 2 ours on fuel easy, have amazing brakes, have enough HP to pull anyone but GBU, easy to drive, reliable. It would be good at everything, why no one has done it fully yet is beyond me, but maybe someday. It should be like 5 seconds faster than all other cars without a problem. The bad thing was the cost would have been like $20-25K when done. Not crazy, but a hole lot more than the 7-10K I have in the Miata NC. We also asked ourselves two questions on the build that kept on coming up. If we are that much faster than everyone and have to hold back to not get scrutiny is it really fun? Would that win really make us feel good and that we earned it? We earned it based on the rules and exploiting a certain platform build, but not driving to the cars abilities just feels wrong and hollow. I would rather push the entire race and get 5th with great battles then drive around and get 1st. If that happens that would be a boring and wothrless win to me. The 2nd issue if if we took all that time to build it and win races then we know we would get the VPI evaluation issue and increase because it is not the few popular cars out there. Why build something if you know you can only run it one year.

 

In retrospect I should really have just saved my money and time and used it to pay for rental seats. I might actually sell the Miata NC and do that as being team owner and builder is becoming a big stress headache and not really worth it anymore. When you have to worry if you set FTD you will get your VPI increased if you beat someone takes the fun out of it for sure.

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10 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

little tank cars needed to be creative to just have a hope of doing well against big tank cars. That advantage is being hurt now. I will do some research on the winners of races and tank size from last races to see if those teams that won went 2 hours or not at some point in the race. That should be good data to do.

 

BTW- This rule does not affect saftey at all. It will make people still full up their fill tubes and all as much as before and maybe more now. They will still do it, maybe with a shorter full tube, maybe, but they will all be full.

 

It is obvious you do not think the adjustment and rule is a bad thing.

 

You want on the board, have at it and enjoy. We can see how you feel about this rule that hurts a huge portion of the club. If you feel that way you do not have my vote, that is for sure.

I understand why the LTC do what they do. 

The rules states that all fuel lines must take a short direct path, perhaps this wasn't enforced. 

I don't disagree with the change just just as you do but the way it was handled........."BTW- I do not disagree with the 2+ gallon rule and it might hurt me a bit, but I could stomach it much better if it was done differently."

The 2022 Rules have been available for all to see for some time. Why was this not included in that preview?  

This sort of rule making needs to stop and we've discussed it here on the forums yet it continues every year. 

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Let's be careful not to exaggerate and lump all the big tank cars together with some "crazy advantage."  There are many big tank cars, mine included, that are big tank but heavy and slow with limited aftermarket support for improving....so that big tank "advantage" was one of the only things that could help me catch the faster cars.  I have to run a perfect race with 5 min stops every 2 hours and no mechanical issues or black flags just to have a chance at cracking the top 5 (still hasn't happened in 10 years).  

 

I believe many of you are concerned with specific big tank cars like the Altima, SC300 and E30...that's fine if you feel that way but don't lump us all together as being fast and able to go 2 hours.  What you're really saying is that there are 3 cars you think this rule gives an advantage to.

 

As for bringing in the yellow flag strategy stuff too that apparently also really helps the big tank cars...give me a break.   Is there any situation where the small tank cars (or maybe we're just talking about the limited production Cobra and NC) are willing to accept having a disadvantage?  How many other advantages would you like in addition to fast speeds and great handling?

 

Also, this rule has bene presented to us 4 months before it goes into effect....how is that not a long enough lead time to address any changes you might want to make?  Seems like more than enough time.

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40 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

Let's be careful not to exaggerate and lump all the big tank cars together with some "crazy advantage."  There are many big tank cars, mine included, that are big tank but heavy and slow with limited aftermarket support for improving....so that big tank "advantage" was one of the only things that could help me catch the faster cars.  I have to run a perfect race with 5 min stops every 2 hours and no mechanical issues or black flags just to have a chance at cracking the top 5 (still hasn't happened in 10 years).  

 

I believe many of you are concerned with specific big tank cars like the Altima, SC300 and E30...that's fine if you feel that way but don't lump us all together as being fast and able to go 2 hours.  What you're really saying is that there are 3 cars you think this rule gives an advantage to.

 

As for bringing in the yellow flag strategy stuff too that apparently also really helps the big tank cars...give me a break.   Is there any situation where the small tank cars (or maybe we're just talking about the limited production Cobra and NC) are willing to accept having a disadvantage?  How many other advantages would you like in addition to fast speeds and great handling?

 

Also, this rule has bene presented to us 4 months before it goes into effect....how is that not a long enough lead time to address any changes you might want to make?  Seems like more than enough time.

Can't lump all the big tank cars together. And there are more than 3. A big tank car that is as fast as a car with a smaller tank will have big advantage. Restricting fuel capacity would have to be based on performance. The 944's are fast & can have a 23 gallon tank. 

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I know someone was asking earlier in the tread if anyone had done the research in what a gallon of fuel would be worth in points if we allowed "fuel for points". I'm pretty sure @mender did some really good calculations on it in an older thread on the subject. It was an interesting data point as it can be used to show where the STC's VPI shake out in relation to the BTC VPIs just based on fuel capacity. 

 

The new ruling really doesn't affect my team even though we have a STC. We never went to the Nth degree to maximize our fuel capacity. I think we can cram about 13.5 gallons in the car including our swirl tank and our legal capacity should be 13.9 gallons now. I guess we are leaving a little under a gallon on the table since they aren't counting the swirl tank in the pump out. That seems like a weird caveat to the rule now since they are setting a max capacity. Just set a max capacity for the fuel system as raced including the swirl tank and then count the swirl tank in that max capacity. In that case they wouldn't need to spec a size for the swirl tank.

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33 minutes ago, XelderX said:

what a gallon of fuel would be worth in points if we allowed "fuel for points".

well its gotten a bunch more complicated now that we'd have to have a rule for a points per gallon, and the points would be different based on the ambient temperature................  :)

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Could just change maximum stints to 1.5 hours AND shorten pit stops to 4 minutes (less fuel to add).  Ends most of the fuel debate, it's "safer" (maybe "much safer" depending on ambient temperature) and since 2 hours and 5 minutes were arbitrary values to start with.....

 

Of course there is going back to the old fuel for points debate.

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