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12 minutes ago, craig71188 said:

Could just change maximum stints to 1.5 hours AND shorten pit stops to 4 minutes (less fuel to add).  Ends most of the fuel debate, it's "safer" (maybe "much safer" depending on ambient temperature) and since 2 hours and 5 minutes were arbitrary values to start with.....

 

Of course there is going back to the old fuel for points debate.I

I do like anything that helps equalize the field, though I would not be against 3 hour stints either! Just figured I'd put that out here!

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22 minutes ago, craig71188 said:

Could just change maximum stints to 1.5 hours AND shorten pit stops to 4 minutes (less fuel to add).  Ends most of the fuel debate, it's "safer" (maybe "much safer" depending on ambient temperature) and since 2 hours and 5 minutes were arbitrary values to start with.....

 

Of course there is going back to the old fuel for points debate.

It seems to me that if we were to change stint length to something every car could make on fuel, we would have to adjust points so that either, the fastest cars are slowed down, or the slow ones can go faster.    

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

It seems to me that if we were to change stint length to something every car could make on fuel, we would have to adjust points so that either, the fastest cars are slowed down, or the slow ones can go faster.    

That might take care of itself as BTC teams shuffle points towards more power to take advantage (again!) of the extra fuel available. 

 

I've proposed both a fuel for points formula based on race weight and also shorter stints in the past. Of the two, shorter stints is the easier to implement but the engine related fixed value parts should likely be re-evaluated to bring those closer to values that realistically represent the gains available.

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Let me throw this out there for a conversation to start.........

Driver stints are a max of two hours. How about changing every driver change to a 5 minute pit stop regardless if you take fuel or not. If you come in before a driver change to put up a window net, oil leak, loose wheel, hood pin etc you can do your repair & go to pit exit.

Pretty easy to police everyone knows the two hour stint time and teams pitted close by can police it as we do now for a driver change and no fuel.

This shouldn't affect the small tank cars because they still will have to pit early. It won't change anything for the cars that can go two hours which generally are a bit slower in lap times. But it will pull back the big tank cars and take away the absurd advantage they get.

Should make for more cars to be closer together at the end of a race.  

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2 hours ago, hotrod said:

Let me throw this out there for a conversation to start.........

Driver stints are a max of two hours. How about changing every driver change to a 5 minute pit stop regardless if you take fuel or not. If you come in before a driver change to put up a window net, oil leak, loose wheel, hood pin etc you can do your repair & go to pit exit.

Pretty easy to police everyone knows the two hour stint time and teams pitted close by can police it as we do now for a driver change and no fuel.

This shouldn't affect the small tank cars because they still will have to pit early. It won't change anything for the cars that can go two hours which generally are a bit slower in lap times. But it will pull back the big tank cars and take away the absurd advantage they get.

Should make for more cars to be closer together at the end of a race.  

 

But how common is a driver change without fuel under normal circumstances?  I don't think teams running such short stints by design are likely to be in impound.  

 

 

Regarding self policing, people are either afraid to speak up or too-proudly wear the hall monitor badge.

 

I'm in a small tank car and I want the whole timed stop thing to go away.  Allow me to use pit efficiency and strategy to get my car back out there quickly and safely.

 

 

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7 hours ago, mender said:

That might take care of itself as BTC teams shuffle points towards more power to take advantage (again!) of the extra fuel.

 

Wait, y'all have points to shuffle?

Edited by Ian
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9 hours ago, hotrod said:

Let me throw this out there for a conversation to start.........

Driver stints are a max of two hours. How about changing every driver change to a 5 minute pit stop regardless if you take fuel or not. If you come in before a driver change to put up a window net, oil leak, loose wheel, hood pin etc you can do your repair & go to pit exit.

Pretty easy to police everyone knows the two hour stint time and teams pitted close by can police it as we do now for a driver change and no fuel.

This shouldn't affect the small tank cars because they still will have to pit early. It won't change anything for the cars that can go two hours which generally are a bit slower in lap times. But it will pull back the big tank cars and take away the absurd advantage they get.

Should make for more cars to be closer together at the end of a race.  

That really only hurts one team that I know of in Champcar, except for rain races when people try different things. If you are going to call out a specific team at least name them and call them out and be upfront about it.  If you do not like them and what they do, that is fine to have your opinion, just be up front about it.

 

The team can go 3 hours on fuel and will use that when doing 7 hour races. At hour 1-2 they will pit under FCY and driver change only, then pit at hour 3 and 5 for fuel and driver. 3 stop and one is driver only.  This can save them like 1-2 laps a race.

 

The rule would really only hurt that one team when doing that specific situation.

 

The only other thing I can think off is if someone runs out of fuel at 2:15 to go, come in and fuel and change driver, then after 15 min they wait for a pace car, pit and driver only and back out. Other than that is is not a big deal.

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14 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

That really only hurts one team that I know of in Champcar, except for rain races when people try different things. If you are going to call out a specific team at least name them and call them out and be upfront about it.  If you do not like them and what they do, that is fine to have your opinion, just be up front about it.

 

The team can go 3 hours on fuel and will use that when doing 7 hour races. At hour 1-2 they will pit under FCY and driver change only, then pit at hour 3 and 5 for fuel and driver. 3 stop and one is driver only.  This can save them like 1-2 laps a race.

 

The rule would really only hurt that one team when doing that specific situation.

 

The only other thing I can think off is if someone runs out of fuel at 2:15 to go, come in and fuel and change driver, then after 15 min they wait for a pace car, pit and driver only and back out. Other than that is is not a big deal.

Honestly Troy I thought there was more than just one. There's a lot of talk in this post about small tank vs big tank. I thought this idea would take away a pretty big advantage that one could gain. That's why I was just throwing out the thought. 

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19 hours ago, hotrod said:

Honestly Troy I thought there was more than just one. There's a lot of talk in this post about small tank vs big tank. I thought this idea would take away a pretty big advantage that one could gain. That's why I was just throwing out the thought. 

There might be more than one, of all the races I go to there is only one that I have seen do it. I thought there might be one out west, maybe a VW, but the car was slow it really did not get the rath of others or on the radar.

Edited by MR2 Biohazard
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10 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

There might be more than one, of all the races I go to there is only one that I have seen do it. I thought there might be one out west, maybe a VW, but the car was so slow it really did not matter.

 

Slow cars matter.

 

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On 9/4/2021 at 10:28 AM, MR2 Biohazard said:

If we are that much faster than everyone and have to hold back to not get scrutiny is it really fun? Would that win really make us feel good and that we earned it? We earned it based on the rules and exploiting a certain platform build, but not driving to the cars abilities just feels wrong and hollow. I would rather push the entire race and get 5th with great battles then drive around and get 1st.

We think the same, unfortunately we have been thinking its what it may take as there already are faster cars out there being driven slower. While demoralizing, I know we are far from racing gods, know where we are leaving speed on the table, and know others are optimized to a much finer degree, so, feelings are kept tabled as they are doing it better then us, KUDOS to them! 

 

  What sucks is when that same "way faster" car outspends us on tires, or has some convoluted fuel CELL filler giving them the ability to run longer then supposedly possible, that flatly causes anger.

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On 9/5/2021 at 11:05 AM, hotrod said:

Let me throw this out there for a conversation to start.........

Driver stints are a max of two hours. How about changing every driver change to a 5 minute pit stop regardless if you take fuel or not. If you come in before a driver change to put up a window net, oil leak, loose wheel, hood pin etc you can do your repair & go to pit exit.

Pretty easy to police everyone knows the two hour stint time and teams pitted close by can police it as we do now for a driver change and no fuel.

This shouldn't affect the small tank cars because they still will have to pit early. It won't change anything for the cars that can go two hours which generally are a bit slower in lap times. But it will pull back the big tank cars and take away the absurd advantage they get.

Should make for more cars to be closer together at the end of a race.  

 

Driver change without time is useful if you have a driver who finds they can't finish their stint.  Happened to us this past race where driver 1 ate something that didn't agree, puked up his shoes inside his helmet.  Would you want to be the guy that has to live with that any longer than necessary?   Similarly I've been involved in races where heat overcomes a driver and they just need to get OUT.  Penalizing a driver change would be a backhanded way to deal with fuel.

 

I have been a proponent of 1hour 50 minute max stints.  It doesn't change what we have now by much, but does make the timing of a fuel stop much more of a strategy call.  Currently any race of even number of hours is a collection of 2-hour stints.  If max length was 1:50, it would require an extra stop, but that stop could be pretty much at your choice of when.

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On 9/5/2021 at 8:09 AM, craig71188 said:

Could just change maximum stints to 1.5 hours AND shorten pit stops to 4 minutes (less fuel to add).  Ends most of the fuel debate, it's "safer" (maybe "much safer" depending on ambient temperature) and since 2 hours and 5 minutes were arbitrary values to start with.....

 

Of course there is going back to the old fuel for points debate.

This would only work if you made each stop 5 minutes regardless of taking fuel or not.  Which I would love to see.  1.5hrs stints and mandatory 5 minute stops.

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1 hour ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

This would only work if you made each stop 5 minutes regardless of taking fuel or not.  Which I would love to see.  1.5hrs stints and mandatory 5 minute stops.

This may require a temperature correction factor. 5 minutes at a cold track like autumn Road America won't be the same as 5 minutes in Florida heat. 

Edited by enginerd
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2 hours ago, MMiskoe said:

 

Driver change without time is useful if you have a driver who finds they can't finish their stint.  Happened to us this past race where driver 1 ate something that didn't agree, puked up his shoes inside his helmet.  Would you want to be the guy that has to live with that any longer than necessary?   Similarly I've been involved in races where heat overcomes a driver and they just need to get OUT.  Penalizing a driver change would be a backhanded way to deal with fuel.

 

I have been a proponent of 1hour 50 minute max stints.  It doesn't change what we have now by much, but does make the timing of a fuel stop much more of a strategy call.  Currently any race of even number of hours is a collection of 2-hour stints.  If max length was 1:50, it would require an extra stop, but that stop could be pretty much at your choice of when.

Yes that's why I mentioned that the 5 minute stop be at every two hour mark. Any other stop would, for a early driver change for the reasons you mentioned, would not have to be 5 minutes. Five minute stops regardless of fueling might be at the 1:55 or so mark.   

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5 hours ago, hotrod said:

Yes that's why I mentioned that the 5 minute stop be at every two hour mark. Any other stop would, for a early driver change for the reasons you mentioned, would not have to be 5 minutes. Five minute stops regardless of fueling might be at the 1:55 or so mark.   

Let us work in the world of real possibilities. The 5 min stop is not going anywhere and there is no real good reason to justify it going anywhere. Change it to 4 minutes and that helps efficient experienced teams gain more of an advantage. The experienced teams will still be able to do fuel and tires in that time if they want.  That will not change and we should focus on what might be able to change, if anything, to help fix possible problems.

 

You idea does not fix anything. If a team can go 3 hours of fuel why would they want to stop at 1:55-2:00 mark. That relaly does not make sense to stop then.

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I would assume the definition of a "fuel limited" car would be a car that can not go 2 hours on fuel.  From what I have been reading, the cars marked in yellow below in races last year that would traditionally be thought of as fuel limited will no longer have a chance to podium next year based on a change we have announced regarding fuel systems.  The rule being fuel necks will be included in overall fuel capacity for cars with fuel cells as well as those with stock tanks and that each have a + 2 gallon max over published fuel capacity for each car.  Previously fuel necks were not included in the +2 gal limit with no definition other than it couldn't be more than 3" OD and had to have a "direct route".  There was no max capacity defined for stock tanks, only they had to be unmodified stock tanks in the stock location and vents and necks could be modified.  Because of this announced change, some have concerns the balance has tipped and are now suggesting changes to the pit stop and fueling rules among other things.  Do I have the perceived problem identified?

 

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19 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I would assume the definition of a "fuel limited" car would be a car that can not go 2 hours on fuel.  From what I have been reading, the cars marked in yellow below in races last year that would traditionally be thought of as fuel limited will no longer have a chance to podium next year based on a change we have announced regarding fuel systems.  The rule being fuel necks will be included in overall fuel capacity for cars with fuel cells as well as those with stock tanks and that each have a + 2 gallon max over published fuel capacity for each car.  Previously fuel necks were not included in the +2 gal limit with no definition other than it couldn't be more than 3" OD and had to have a "direct route".  There was no max capacity defined for stock tanks, only they had to be unmodified stock tanks in the stock location and vents and necks could be modified.  Because of this announced change, some have concerns the balance has tipped and are now suggesting changes to the pit stop and fueling rules among other things.  Do I have the perceived problem identified?

 

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I would say perceived is a very important word that you used Roger.  

 

Just an observation, when we started it seemed like there were no almost no e30's that went 2 hours.  It seems like most do now.  There could be all sorts of interesting things happen if Tech makes a regular practice of checking capacity in impound.   

Edited by JDChristianson
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43 minutes ago, Rodger Coan-Burningham said:

I would assume the definition of a "fuel limited" car would be a car that can not go 2 hours on fuel.  From what I have been reading, the cars marked in yellow below in races last year that would traditionally be thought of as fuel limited will no longer have a chance to podium next year based on a change we have announced regarding fuel systems.  The rule being fuel necks will be included in overall fuel capacity for cars with fuel cells as well as those with stock tanks and that each have a + 2 gallon max over published fuel capacity for each car.  Previously fuel necks were not included in the +2 gal limit with no definition other than it couldn't be more than 3" OD and had to have a "direct route".  There was no max capacity defined for stock tanks, only they had to be unmodified stock tanks in the stock location and vents and necks could be modified.  Because of this announced change, some have concerns the balance has tipped and are now suggesting changes to the pit stop and fueling rules among other things.  Do I have the perceived problem identified?

 

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I think that's oversimplified and just looking at whether a car goes 2 hours or not (at a given track) won't get you a clear picture.

 

What happened is that teams who were fuel stint limited were more likely to abuse the heck out of the filler necks compared to teams with passively longer stint lengths and therefore will see a greater negative impact from this rule. Sometimes these huge filler necks resulted in reaching 2 hours and sometimes it still didn't get them there.

 

Regarding 8 hour races, a car capable of 2:20 at a given track will be unaffected by this loss of capacity. A car capable of 1:58 will certainly now take an additional pit stop. A car that could do 1:53 before will be only slightly inconvenienced as they were taking 1 extra stop anyway. And a car doing 1:35 max stints before will now take a 2nd extra stop.

 

It will be messy to figure out who's most affected by this change and whether VPIs should be adjusted. Perhaps solicit feedback from teams, ask them "how big was your filler neck, and will this drop you through a stint length breakpoint at XYZ tracks?"

 

Almost every car will see a performance hit from this, but there will be a spectrum of how much each car is disadvantaged, and that is what you have to look at.

Edited by enginerd
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@Rodger Coan-Burningham

 

I think you really have 3 classes of cars. Fuel rich, "average" and "fuel poor". Using stock weights, like the chart below I think the fuel poor cars are around 200 lbs\gal, average is in the 180 range and fuel rich is above that in terms of 2020 rules. 

 

Granted some of these cars can lose alot more weight than others from OEM, so raced weights would be much more accurate. Same for "not swap weights", getting a pulse on the actual raced weights of the cars would help the balancing immensely. In general you could guess that a heavy car and a light car at the same point on my list using OEM weights, the heavy car has a strong advantage in fuel to weight when you factor in the race weight. 

 

This chart is recycled from a fuel balancing petition years ago, with the support obviously better from teams towards the bottom of this list. I think the uproar this year occurred because the assumed PWR required to reduce an extra stop shifted due to the updated fuel rule. Now that the light cars in the 180 range are complaining there might be enough market share affected to bring about change, or at least have more people consider it out of empathy vs sympathy.  

 

image002.png.972aa7e592d8b056c631fed18440722c.png

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