Jump to content

2022 BCCR


Recommended Posts

Just now, Johnpickard79 said:

Honestly, the constant rule changes and lack of some common sense has driven us to build a new car to run elsewhere. We might still run a Champ race or two, but it will be as EC because it just isnt worth the headache anymore to keep on top of what is and is not legal. e.g. how we failed tech at Gingerman for having a 3rd 3" hole in our back window. The same 3rd 3" hole that had been there since 2017. Think about the below scenario and tell me how to make sense of it? 

1. No back window at all - Legal, no questions asked

2. Chopping the entire roof, trunk, and most of the quarter panels off a coupe to make a convertible - Legal, no questions asked. (despite the fact that it would clearly disintegrate in any kind of impact) 

3. 2x 3" holes in a lexan window - Legal, no questions asked

4. 3x 3" holes in a lexan window - Illegal. Not "fix it for next race" not "take points for it". No, full blown we wont let you start this race with it that way illegal.

 

That is just one example of a number of things about this series rules that make almost no sense if viewed logically, and its just not worth the hassle anymore. Now, seeing that our fuel cell which met the letter of the rules for 3 years will also probably be illegal now just means another expense driven purely by rules changes. It was purchased as being +2gal, but in all honestly never even got that much in unless we filled it up until it overflowed, which we don't. It just isn't worth it anymore. 

When we started with this club, it truly felt like it was 100% based in being a fun, safe, clean grassroots racing organization, and now it feels like its focused more on writing rules for the teams that show up with $6k in tires for the weekend at the expense of the small guys. 

It's not even worth it any more. There is constant drama. As I said earlier ITT, the biased and arbitrary VPI changes, rule changes and now a major change to what is a tenet of the series, fuel capacity. 

As other have mentioned, this is 100% a gift to the fuel rich cars. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but I don't think your understanding how this works.

 

I'll try to explain it as best I can. 

 

1. In Florida on Sept 1st, you do your test and your at the limit of 15Gal. Dead on. Temp is 100Degrees. Fuel is at 100D Fuel weight is 102lbs.

 

2. Road Atlanta in Feb.  Temp is 40Degrees. Fuel is at 40 degrees. you still can only put 15Gal in your system. But the weight will be higher. Maybe 108lbs. 

 

So yes, technically you have more "fuel" in the cell if your using energy as your metric of measurement. But the volume is the exact same 15Gal.  If you took the 15Gal in cans from Florida and let them cool in Atlanta and then put them in the car, you may actually be only putting in 14Gal, but the same "energy"

 

Does that make more sense?

We are not measuring energy, we are measuring capacity.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Your making my point for me man......your right. And capacity will be the same no matter what the temperature is.

You even said yourself you can put more in.  Look, you can talk down to me all you want.  I have been Professional level racing since 2001, (with teams such as, Prodrive Ferrari, Panoz, Carsport America, Spirit Of Daytona, and countless other teams inbetween) I am not here to prove credentials.  But I do know from the Motorsports degree I have and the experience I have earned, fuel does change.  We can argue till we are blue in the face, but facts are facts.  I will have you come certify my tank.  And if I ever get bounced,you pay my weekend bills.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Your making my point for me man......your right. And capacity will be the same no matter what the temperature is.

So you are saying a container that has a capacity of 1 gallon of gasoline, heated to a temp of 100 degrees, will not hold more gasoline that is at 40 degrees.

 

That is patently false.

 

A simple pump and fill test will give different results for the same container depending on temperature of the gasoline. Again, as documented by the Sunoco test on the Penske Camaro way back in 1969.

 

They didn't build a fueling tower that surrounded the gasoline with dry ice and acetone for the hell of it. It allowed them to put at least a full gallon more in the car.

 

The same will happen with a car built to run in the summer heat down south if it brought to Road America in the fall with no changes.

 

And it would fail a pump/fill test that it passed 5 months earlier with the only difference being outside temperature.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

According to IMSA, weight of a gallon of fuel is 6.38 pounds per gallon.  Temperature does greatly affect volume. 

 

I think he is using his reference to IMSA, where they list a specific weight for the fuel that is only accurate at one temp. If you use the weight method and don't account for changes in density with temp, yes temp will mess up your measurement (even though the real volume never changed) because the method was done wrong. Still, a rigid 15 gal container will have a volume of 15 gal regardless of if you fill it with gas, water or mercury. 

 

14 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

capacity will be the same no matter what the temperature is.

Yes agreed. Technically there is a small amount of expansion of steel with temp that would make the fuel cell box larger. We can do the math on the CTE of steel, but you are talking incredibly small numbers. Depending on the quality of the install of your cell and prep of the fuel cell container, you may have air trapped between the bladder and the container that could vary the actual volume depending on the density of the liquid you put in there. Also if your cell isn't well supported it can flex when filled and create errors when reading (square box becomes more rounded) but these aren't totally specific to temp. Even with 2021 rules if they are able to fill 15.5 gals in your 15 gal cell (cell only, not total system) you would fail tech regardless of outside temp, assume tech does a reasonable procedure to know they put 15.5 gal of some liquid in your cell. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Bandit said:

So you are saying a container that has a capacity of 1 gallon of gasoline, heated to a temp of 100 degrees, will not hold more gasoline that is at 40 degrees.

 

That is patently false.

 

A simple pump and fill test will give different results for the same container depending on temperature of the gasoline. Again, as documented by the Sunoco test on the Penske Camaro way back in 1969.

 

They didn't build a fueling tower that surrounded the gasoline with dry ice and acetone for the hell of it. It allowed them to put at least a full gallon more in the car.

 

The same will happen with a car built to run in the summer heat down south if it brought to Road America in the fall with no changes.

 

And it would fail a pump/fill test that it passed 5 months earlier with the only difference being outside temperature.

 

 

 

 

You guys are not understanding this.  The fuel will change volume with temperature but the container won’t.  
 

The Penske trick was as I explained earlier. The cold fuel will heat up in the car and expand to a larger volume.  But that’s only because of the rapid (relative) change in temp.  It’s also because they were racing the car while it expanded.  The fuel burn made it possible. If they filled it and it just sat in the pits, the fuel would expand and overflow out the car.  

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Bandit said:

As pointed out previously, Sunoco documented putting 23 gallons into a 22 gallon cell after chilling the fuel down to 25 degrees versus 95.

 

If you read the article I linked the SCCA measured the cells with fuel at 72 degrees.

 

The temp of the fuel most certainly makes a difference with a simple pump and fill test.

This is all making my head hurt....

 

The process for pumping out and filling the cell is all going to be at the same temp.  No chilling or heating of fuel.

 

And no, they didn't put 23 gallons of fuel in.  They put 22 gallons of fuel in (that can then expand due to quick temp changes).  It is not possible to put in more fuel than the system can hold.

 

You can change the density of the fuel.

 

However, density is not part of the volume equation.  It's just volume.

 

The only way that density or weight COULD play a part in this is if the fuel changes temp.  I believe that the check will happen as quickly as possible and isn't going to let the fuel cell sit in the sun for a few hours, and the fuel being put in isn't going to be chilled.

 

In other words, the volume of fuel doesn't change if checked at the same temp.

 

Is somebody planning on heating or cooling the fuel and or components during the process?

Edited by wvumtnbkr
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bandit I think your logic about the 23 gallons into a 22 gal cell is wrong.  Penske/Sunocos documented procedure would have been:

 

1) take 23 gallons put it in chiller machine

2) chill 23 gallons until it reaches 22 gallon mark

3) take 22 gallons of marked fuel and put it into car/cell

4) win

 

Champ procedure skips step 2.  So you can take 23 gallons of warm (air temp) fuel and dump it into car, will have 1 gallon left over = 22 gallons.  OR you could take 22 gallons of super chilled Penske fuel and fill the cell to the brim with zero left over, = 22 gallons.

 

Same deal as if you try and fill your car in florida summer and confirm volume and then wait six months, drive to Petewawa in February and fill your car with fuel jugs that have been sitting outside overnight.  Volume is volume.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And so what is the proposed temp to be checked?  What is the official calibrated container to measure from?  Where do we aquire the correct (specific) measuring tools to get this right?  I play the fuel game as I have a small tanked car that cannot run 2hrs.  So this hits close to home for me.  I want to be able to set and forget.  Maybe even have tech do my car and seal my tank so I don't have to worry and then let's see if yall ok with that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm kinda confused why this is suddenly an issue...

 

Isn't this how cars were checked for fuel before?

 

Didn't we have a wee bit of an incident earlier this year that set the precedent?

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm kinda confused why this is suddenly an issue...

 

Isn't this how cars were checked for fuel before?

 

Didn't we have a wee bit of an incident earlier this year that set the precedent?

What was checked was the cell volume, not the volume of the lines, filler, etc.. 

All of that volume is out the window. So if you have a fuel cell car that's +2, it's now illegal. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't post often as I race EC and focus more on other series (I love the thick fields of champcar, the paddock, and other things, but I hate this rule book).

 

This is a shitty rule change flat out (coming from a BMW racer). Maybe I am out on my own here, but why not allow any car to go two hours? Have a max fuel amount for displacement or # of cylinders? Make pit stops only 3 minutes? Then adjust VPI accordingly. 

 

This kills any car that is close on gas (miatas, fox bodies, etc).

 

The series is going to get to a point within the next 5 years where all of the new cars coming in are limited on gas (newer hondas come to mind) what are we going to do then? Be a vintage car only series where parts are NLA or more expensive than the entry fee?

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Snorman said:

What was checked was the cell volume, not the volume of the lines, filler, etc.. 

All of that volume is out the window. So if you have a fuel cell car that's +2, it's now illegal. 

Agreed.  I'm not talking about that part.  I'm talking about people riled up about how it will be checked.

 

I am not going to contribute to the new ruling regarding capacity.  

 

My car is borderline able to make it 2 hours with a stock tank, so I am not directly impacted by this change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

Agreed.  I'm not talking about that part.  I'm talking about people riled up about how it will be checked.

 

I am not going to contribute to the new ruling regarding capacity.  

 

My car is borderline able to make it 2 hours with a stock tank, so I am not directly impacted by this change.

You're not, and the BMWs aren't, but this screws a lot of cars and a lot of teams that spent a lot of money to race in the series. 

I'll withhold my opinion on where these BCCR wording changes originated, but the writing is on the wall and it has been. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

And so what is the proposed temp to be checked?  

 Doesnt matter.  UNLESS the procedure calls for race director to fill some jugs before they leave florida with correct marked volume amounts and then drive to Road America in 30 degree weather for the race (totally extreme example!).  If they mark out X gallons in a container on pit road/impound, and you do the same in your garage to test, then all good.

 

8 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

What is the official calibrated container to measure from?  

 

This is the correct question to be asking.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To make it plain and simple without any other examples to allow people to go off on tangents;

 

You build your fuel system to hold precisely 18 gallons in 100 degree weather with 100 degree gasoline. You then go to a race where it is 35 degrees and the gas is 35 degrees.

 

A simple pump and fill will give different results.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Snorman said:

You're not, and the BMWs aren't, but this screws a lot of cars and a lot of teams that spent a lot of money to race in the series. 

I'll withhold my opinion on where these BCCR wording changes originated, but the writing is on the wall and it has been. 

Setting aside the change to the competitiveness of the affected cars....

 

Can't a displacement block just be put in the cell?

 

Are there really stock tank cars getting 2 extra gallons out?

 

I'm asking, because I REALLY don't know.

 

My question for this entire situation is why?  If it's safety, make a rule that directly impacts the safety.  For example, only allow so much fuel in the filler neck, or make a maximum length and diameter of the filler neck.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Bandit said:

To make it plain and simple without any other examples to allow people to go off on tangents;

 

You build your fuel system to hold precisely 18 gallons in 100 degree weather with 100 degree gasoline. You then go to a race where it is 35 degrees and the gas is 35 degrees.

 

A simple pump and fill will give different results.

 

 

 

Why would 18 gallons of fuel at 35 degrees not fill an 18 gallon tank/cell?

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

The temp of the test doesn’t matter. It could be on the cold side of the moon ffs. 
 

The rest of your concerns have nothing to do with this change. They would apply today, yesterday and 2 years ago.  
 

Seems like your grasping at straws now

Not grasping at straws.  My stock tank fit within the rules.  I have a filler relocation to make safer fueling for my fuel and drivers.  I am 100% legal to the rules of tank +2.  Then I also get filler capacity.  I STILL cannot run 2hrs.  Now I am losing fuel capacity.   It is pretty black and white.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Bandit said:

To make it plain and simple without any other examples to allow people to go off on tangents;

 

You build your fuel system to hold precisely 18 gallons in 100 degree weather with 100 degree gasoline. You then go to a race where it is 35 degrees and the gas is 35 degrees.

 

A simple pump and fill will give different results.

 

 

No, it won't.

 

If you fill it with 15 gallons of 35 degree fuel and pump out 35 degree fuel, you will get out 15 gallons.

 

If you take that same exact system and fill it up with 100 degree fuel and pump out 100 degree fuel, you will still have the same exact 15 gallons.

 

However, the density of the 35 degree fuel will be higher and habe more "energy".  Volume will be exactly the same.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm kinda confused why this is suddenly an issue...

 

Isn't this how cars were checked for fuel before?

 

Didn't we have a wee bit of an incident earlier this year that set the precedent?

What was checked was the cell capacity, not all the ways that one could get extra by stretching the idea of what a direct route for the filler neck was.   This closes a loop hole, a gray area, whatever.    It also makes it a bunch easier for tech in impound.    Some cars would take a fair amount of disassembly to get to the cell to measure it directly.  I think this is a very good move by the BOD.   There might be some cars that have to back down power now.    

 

I think you are right Rob, a lot of people are making this way to complicated.   

 

If you don't want problems with your capacity don't size your system for -20 degrees in January or 115 in August.  Oh and leave just a tiny bit of cushion and have some fun.    Keep calm and race on.................

 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

Not grasping at straws.  My stock tank fit within the rules.  I have a filler relocation to make safer fueling for my fuel and drivers.  I am 100% legal to the rules of tank +2.  Then I also get filler capacity.  I STILL cannot run 2hrs.  Now I am losing fuel capacity.   It is pretty black and white.  

So with your filler, you are at more than stock plus 2 gallons?  (The above was a bit unclear to me)

 

I'm trying to get a feel for how encompassing this change actually is.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

So with your filler, you are at more than stock plus 2 gallons?  

 

I'm trying to get a feel for how encompassing this change actually is.

Yes.  I am at 15.6 with my miata with filler full.  I will have to lose atleast 1 gallon of fuel to stay safe from DQ.  My stock tank with stock filler neck holds 14.9 gallons.  According to rules I have to be 14.7 now.  So even in stock trim....  I am not legal and cannot make 2hrs.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...