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2022 BCCR


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1 minute ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

Why would 18 gallons of fuel at 35 degrees not fill an 18 gallon tank/cell?

You left off the part about the cell being sized for 18 gallons of fuel heated to 100 degrees.

 

Volumetric expansion is a thing.

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/petrol-vs-temperature

 

So, if it’s pretty extreme outside, like 45 degrees C, and you’re putting 50 litres in the tank, and it’s being decanted at 25 degrees C, the expansion when it heat soaks to 45 is going to be 20 degrees times 50 litres divided by 1000, which is about one litre more volume. Same mass. Different volume. Goes up by a litre, as if by magic. Physics. Same thing.

There is a significant air volume engineered into the design of the fuel tank (even when it’s notionally full) to compensate for any expansion. So don’t compromise that void by rocking the car backwards and forwards to squeeze more fuel in, and don’t go again after the auto-shutoff on the pump kicks in. The void is there for a reason.

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1 minute ago, Bandit said:

You left off the part about the cell being sized for 18 gallons of fuel heated to 100 degrees.

 

Volumetric expansion is a thing.

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/petrol-vs-temperature

 

So, if it’s pretty extreme outside, like 45 degrees C, and you’re putting 50 litres in the tank, and it’s being decanted at 25 degrees C, the expansion when it heat soaks to 45 is going to be 20 degrees times 50 litres divided by 1000, which is about one litre more volume. Same mass. Different volume. Goes up by a litre, as if by magic. Physics. Same thing.

There is a significant air volume engineered into the design of the fuel tank (even when it’s notionally full) to compensate for any expansion. So don’t compromise that void by rocking the car backwards and forwards to squeeze more fuel in, and don’t go again after the auto-shutoff on the pump kicks in. The void is there for a reason.

Are you planning on heating or cooling the fuel when doing this at impound?

 

If not, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

 

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19 minutes ago, BMW_CEMETERY said:

I don't post often as I race EC and focus more on other series (I love the thick fields of champcar, the paddock, and other things, but I hate this rule book).

 

This is a shitty rule change flat out (coming from a BMW racer). Maybe I am out on my own here, but why not allow any car to go two hours? Have a max fuel amount for displacement or # of cylinders? Make pit stops only 3 minutes? Then adjust VPI accordingly. 

 

This kills any car that is close on gas (miatas, fox bodies, etc).

 

The series is going to get to a point within the next 5 years where all of the new cars coming in are limited on gas (newer hondas come to mind) what are we going to do then? Be a vintage car only series where parts are NLA or more expensive than the entry fee?

 

I can give you some example petitions to file for next year asking for that. Several people have made similar suggestions. That topic is one of the more bludgeoned horses on the forum.  

 

Several of the teams complaining now in the past were not in favor of fuel equalization, seemingly of any method. 

 

Maybe being on the other side of the fence has changed some of the minds in the series, or maybe another method\voice would help. 

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10 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

However, the density of the 35 degree fuel will be higher and habe more "energy".  Volume will be exactly the same.

You contradict yourself here.

 

If density is higher the volume can't stay the same.

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1 minute ago, Bandit said:

You contradict yourself here.

 

If density is higher the volume can't stay the same.

Uh, yes it can....

 

In fact, that's exactly what changing density means....  different weight in same volume.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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3 hours ago, Snake said:

The rule is written incorrectly for what they want to accomplish.   

 

Every car in this series currently with a cell is now no longer legal.   Has anyone ever seen anyone at a pit stop NOT fill up till fuel is overflowing or coming out of their overflow setup?    Every car with a cell will now be over the the stated capacity, unless you are filling directly into the cell which I personally haven't seen but i guess could happen.   

 

Who comes up with this stuff?   Why was this changed as there was NO petition for this?   This was NOT discussed or mentioned in the Annual BOD meeting/presentation.   Trying to slip this in the BCCR with NO member feedback is exactly what pisses people off and the series usually gets wrong anyways.   I guess the series never learns.   

 

I'm happy but my teammates will not be as this will mean we are going to WRL where their rule actually makes sense.   I just wish we would have known sooner so we could have registered for the Sebring 24 instead of the CCES races. 

 

Add displacement blocks. Super easy. 1 gallon lawnmower cans work great. 

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

1 gallon lawnmower cans work great. 

 

I also think any light petroleum container would work, like oil bottles (qrt sized to fit better). I think any HDPE container would be a decent bet.  I want to do a long term dunk test, one of the lemons teams I have helped asked about it. 

Edited by Black Magic
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Just now, Black Magic said:

 

I also think any light petroleum container would work, like oil bottles. I think any HDPE container would be a decent bet.  I want to do a long term dunk test, one of the lemons teams I have helped asked about it. 

I looked into this and found that the vessel itself is fine.  However, the cap and the seal on the cap on most of these containers (including oil bottles) MAY not last.  

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Just curious...  how do you get it IN the cell?

My fuelsafe cell can fit them through the big fill plate hole.

I have 3 of them in my 22 gallon fuelsafe cell

Edited by enginerd
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Here's a couple I have not yet seen:

- No changes to the BCCR will be published without highlighting the change from the previous copy

 

- Let's get rid of the rewards laps that get assigned to the winner of a two-day race weekend.  It is a sour grapes rule, defies pretty much all of what Champ goes for with regard to "let's get cars on track so we can enjoy racing".  Besides, day one and day two can be completely different due to weather or other outside influences.

 

- Window nets anyone?  Could we get some better language one that please?

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5 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

Simple Google search

Screenshot_20210901-122055_Chrome.jpg

I cant....  I just cant....

 

This assumes that the weight is not changing...

 

It is also referring to a simple object.  

 

It would also require some way to change the density (temperature or pressure).  We wouldn't be applying any temp or pressure to the system while performing this test...

 

Are you guys being serious with this?

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1 minute ago, MMiskoe said:

Here's a couple I have not yet seen:

- No changes to the BCCR will be published without highlighting the change from the previous copy

 

Chris is doing that. It's located here -https://champcar.org/web/rules.php
https://champcar.org/web/pdf/2022bccr/2022bccrv1/2022_BCCR_V1.0_redline.pdf
 

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2 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I cant....  I just cant....

 

This assumes that the weight is not changing...

 

It is also referring to a simple object.  

 

It would also require some way to change the density (temperature or pressure).  We wouldn't be applying any temp or pressure to the system while performing this test...

 

Are you guys being serious with this?

I am directly talking about when tanks or cells are set.  If you set a cell I Florida in August, it will not be the same in Road Atlanta in Feb.  Volume WILL ABSOLUTELY be different.   We are not talking about super heating or cooling fuel during the event. We are talking about setting and forgetting.  You cannot.

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3 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

I am directly talking about when tanks or cells are set.  If you set a cell I Florida in August, it will not be the same in Road Atlanta in Feb.  Volume WILL ABSOLUTELY be different.   We are not talking about super heating or cooling fuel during the event. We are talking about setting and forgetting.  You cannot.

No, it won't.

 

Really.  It won't.

 

What dimension of the cell is changing?  

 

Volume is just linear measurements multiplied by each other.  L x W x H.  Which one of those is changing due to temperature?

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41 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Setting aside the change to the competitiveness of the affected cars....

 

Can't a displacement block just be put in the cell?

 

Are there really stock tank cars getting 2 extra gallons out?

 

I'm asking, because I REALLY don't know.

 

My question for this entire situation is why?  If it's safety, make a rule that directly impacts the safety.  For example, only allow so much fuel in the filler neck, or make a maximum length and diameter of the filler neck.

I can't speak for stock tank cars. I would imagine there are cases where people have modified the venting to get more fuel in them under the rules.

If you look around the paddock, you see lots of cars with larger filler neck setups. I don't buy the ridiculous statements and claims that people are running 2 gallon filler necks, that would require 6'-6" of 3" OD (2.75" ID) filler neck, so likely at least a 7'-7.5' filler. So anybody now running a cell with +2 gallons loses any filler volume and any volume in the lines, filters (and I've seen cars with huge diesel filters on them), etc.. 

While it might now seem like much, it's huge to fuel starved cars and it clearly puts them now out of contention, which I suppose is exactly what lots of people want. Take 1 gallon away from a fuel-starved car x7 pit stops. It's not even worth racing now.

Let the big-tank E30s, SC300s, etc. take over the series again and let them have fun with hollow wins.

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22 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

I am directly talking about when tanks or cells are set.  If you set a cell I Florida in August, it will not be the same in Road Atlanta in Feb.  Volume WILL ABSOLUTELY be different.   We are not talking about super heating or cooling fuel during the event. We are talking about setting and forgetting.  You cannot.

X cold gallons is the same as X hot gallons as long as the containers aren’t changing their dimensions. The cold fill will certainly put more fuel MASS in the tank, but it won’t put in more gallons unless you put it in cold and then heat it up. 

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3 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

 

Do yourself a favor and educate yourselves.  Watch it.

Nobody is saying the fuel itself doesn't change volume with temperature or pressure differences.

 

We are saying that the volume of the fuel system doesn't change.

 

Unless you apply a temperature or pressure variation DURING the test, the volume of fuel does NOT change.

 

1 gallon of milk has the same size container in Wisconsin or florida.

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Without wishing to add more fuel to the fire (hehe), looking at this another way would an increase in the driver stint time limit (2 hours to 3 hours) and/or a decrease in the fuel stop time restriction (5 minutes to 4 minutes) help to give some parity back to the teams who are currently fuel limited?

 

It obviously won't help endurance, but it might grant more flexibility to strategy decisions by widening pit stop windows and lessening the impact of additional stops for fuel only. I appreciate that there may be safety concerns, but teams are generally smarter about fueling nowadays (in step with other safety improvements that have been made).

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In the U.S., 60°F is considered the temperature at which fuel is “normal” in weight, volume and energy content; thus it is the standard temperature used to measure true fuel volume. One gallon of fuel occupies 231 cubic inches of space at 60°F. Fuel expands as it exceeds 60°and contracts as it falls below 60°. What does that mean for fuel purchasers?

 

https://mansfield.energy/market-news/how-laws-of-nature-impact-fuel-procurement/

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