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2022 BCCR


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1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

1. Tech will fill your car with 200F gasoline
2. Freeze your car to 0F
3. Fill one more gallon of 0F

4. Pump out the gas and heat it up 

 

Now you are DQed...

I don't see that happening.

To be fair, this is actually an issue but easily solved.  I believe its actually happened.   When the car come off the track, the fuel system is hot. If its a circulating return style system, the pump heats up the fuel.  In impound, you pump out your cell per the rules. It could be 150f or more. Tech would then measure it out. lets say they get 15Gal.  If you wait a bit, the temp starts dropping and the volume decreases. if its 40f outside, and you wait an hour, it may shrink to 14Gal. In this situation, you would actually be safer, not dq'd.  

 

The solution is to make sure that the fuel going into the cell for the test is at ambient temp. The cell should be ambient too.

 

This is not the same issue as others are clearly not understanding.

 

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4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Can someone get @mender in here to start campaigning for Fuel for Points?

I'm just eyeballing a 1979 Delta 88 with a 27 gallon (at 60 degrees) tank.

Edited by Bandit
speeling
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Just now, Bandit said:

I'm just eyeballing at 1979 Delta 88 with a 27 gallon (at 60 degrees) tank.

 

At some point it becomes ridiculous when something like that would win over a well prepped Miata/S2000 just because it has a large fuel tank.

 

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3 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

RVA Graphics & Wraps should be able to assist us on the expansion and contraction of fuel due to temperatures. 
A cold fuel system at Road Atlanta in the spring will hold more fuel than an overheated system at the VIR 24. It's not the system., but the temp of the fuel itself.
So how is that going to be addressed? Do we use a correction factor based on the type of fuel you are using and the fuel temperature?

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm00129.html

 

 

You want a sticker that says, "I'm not cheatin?"

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9 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

At some point it becomes ridiculous when something like that would win over a well prepped Miata/S2000 just because it has a large fuel tank.

 

It would take Raikkonen and Elliott to win with that.

 

And then it's VPI would be bumped to 550 to make sure it never happens again.

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11 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

 

Cheese and Rice man!!!!  No one is saying that fuel doesn't expand. We are saying that in the situation of measuring the volume of fuel cells, it doesn't matter.

 

For the sanity of this forum, could you please go back and read our explanations. Try and leave your ego and "experience" out of it.  

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To be honest, I stopped reading after the fourth page so if I missed or repeat something I apologize.  Our company grew out of a residential heating oil business into a lot of other business lines including fuel distribution as well as C-store operations.  I have been doing this for the last 27 years so while I am not an "expert,"  I do know a thing or two about fuel expansion.  

When you raise the temperature in gasoline, and diesel increases, expansion occurs, resulting in increased volume.  If anyone has ever had their heating oil tank filled in the spring, when it is still cold-ish outside, then experiences the first warm day with the sun beating down on the tank has seen first hand this expansion as evidenced by the fuel running out of the tank.  Trust me, I WISH this was not the case, but it is.  That is usually a 275gallon plus tank so the small per gallon expansion adds up to a larger volume change than our cars, but yes it does expand. We experience inventory growth and shrinkage though-out the changing seasons...its real.

I have heard trade stories of larger truck stop type sites in the past "allegedly" painting their above ground storage tanks black to take advantage of this law of physics.  

 

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I can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading the last 2-3 pages of this thread, but I'm going to take a crack at this anyway

 

@Bandit, @Final Turn Motorsports - all respect to you guys as racers but there's a major disconnect here.

 

Nobody is saying that fuel volume does not change with temperature. We all agree with that.

 

What we're saying is that a 1 gallon container will hold the same VOLUME of fuel whether the fuel is at 0 degrees or 100 degrees. Gallon is a measure of volume.

 

Let's say you have a 1 gallon container at 0 degrees and you fill it with fuel at 0 degrees. The VOLUME of fuel that you put into the container will be 1 gallon.

 

Now dump the container out and move it to a location that is 100 degrees, and fill it with fuel that is also at 100 degrees. The VOLUME of fuel you put into the container will still be 1 gallon.

 

NOW - and here is where I think the disconnect lies. If you take that container ALREADY FILLED with fuel at 0 degrees and heat it up to 100 degrees, the fuel will expand and overflow the container, but the VOLUME of the container is still 1 gallon.

 

The pump out test says the tank will be drained and filled with "known amounts" of fuel. The ONLY WAY anyone with a properly sized system could get into trouble at impound due to the fact that fuel volume changes with temperature is if tech places "known amounts" of fuel into the test containers and then, between the moment they fix the "known amount" of fuel and the moment it goes into your car, the fuel is cooled down significantly enough to reduce it's volume. 

 

Side note - I think some of the disconnect you're having "based on experience" may be because IMSA and other more sophisticated sanctioning bodies I believe control fuel capacity by WEIGHT (which incidentally is a far more accurate way of controlling the amount of energy available to power a car but that's a whole other can of worms), and if a competitor is trying to comply with a WEIGHT requirement by adjusting the VOLUME of fuel the car holds, that does get very complicated and becomes dynamic depending on ambient temperature. In such a case, a tank that is sized to hold 50 lbs of fuel in the hot Florida sun will hold more than 50 lbs of fuel in the cold Wisconsin winter because 50 lbs of cold fuel takes up less volume than 50 lbs of hot fuel.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Schultz said:

To be honest, I stopped reading after the fourth page so if I missed or repeat something I apologize.  Our company grew out of a residential heating oil business into a lot of other business lines including fuel distribution as well as C-store operations.  I have been doing this for the last 27 years so while I am not an "expert,"  I do know a thing or two about fuel expansion.  

When you raise the temperature in gasoline, and diesel increases, expansion occurs, resulting in increased volume.  If anyone has ever had their heating oil tank filled in the spring, when it is still cold-ish outside, then experiences the first warm day with the sun beating down on the tank has seen first hand this expansion as evidenced by the fuel running out of the tank.  Trust me, I WISH this was not the case, but it is.  That is usually a 275gallon plus tank so the small per gallon expansion adds up to a larger volume change than our cars, but yes it does expand. We experience inventory growth and shrinkage though-out the changing seasons...its real.

I have heard trade stories of larger truck stop type sites in the past "allegedly" painting their above ground storage tanks black to take advantage of this law of physics.  

 

For sure!

 

Nobody is arguing that.

 

Fuel expands!

 

However, if you filled that tank and pumped it right out (no matter in spring or winter or summer), the amount going in and out would still be 275 gallons.

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

For sure!

 

Nobody is arguing that.

 

Fuel expands!

 

However, if you filled that tank and pumped it right out (no matter in spring or winter or summer), the amount going in and out would still be 275 gallons.

The argument, I think, is that he would build the system to be a set number of gallons AT A SPECIFIC TEMPERATURE, which isn't the same amount of gas AT A DIFFERENT TEMPERATURE.  So 15 gallons wouldn't equal 15 gallons if the temperature is significantly different.  The system is the same size, but it was sized at a different temperature than it was tested at, so the number of gallons pumped out wouldn't be what it was designed for.

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3 minutes ago, gavro said:

I can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading the last 2-3 pages of this thread, but I'm going to take a crack at this anyway

 

@Bandit, @Final Turn Motorsports - all respect to you guys as racers but there's a major disconnect here.

 

Nobody is saying that fuel volume does not change with temperature. We all agree with that.

 

What we're saying is that a 1 gallon container will hold the same VOLUME of fuel whether the fuel is at 0 degrees or 100 degrees. Gallon is a measure of volume.

 

Let's say you have a 1 gallon container at 0 degrees and you fill it with fuel at 0 degrees. The VOLUME of fuel that you put into the container will be 1 gallon.

 

Now dump the container out and move it to a location that is 100 degrees, and fill it with fuel that is also at 100 degrees. The VOLUME of fuel you put into the container will still be 1 gallon.

 

NOW - and here is where I think the disconnect lies. If you take that container ALREADY FILLED with fuel at 0 degrees and heat it up to 100 degrees, the fuel will expand and overflow the container, but the VOLUME of the container is still 1 gallon.

 

The pump out test says the tank will be drained and filled with "known amounts" of fuel. The ONLY WAY anyone with a properly sized system could get into trouble at impound due to the fact that fuel volume changes with temperature is if tech places "known amounts" of fuel into the test containers and then, between the moment they fix the "known amount" of fuel and the moment it goes into your car, the fuel is cooled down significantly enough to reduce it's volume. 

 

Side note - I think some of the disconnect you're having "based on experience" may be because IMSA and other more sophisticated sanctioning bodies I believe control fuel capacity by WEIGHT (which incidentally is a far more accurate way of controlling the amount of energy available to power a car but that's a whole other can of worms), and if a competitor is trying to comply with a WEIGHT requirement by adjusting the VOLUME of fuel the car holds, that does get very complicated and becomes dynamic depending on ambient temperature. In such a case, a tank that is sized to hold 50 lbs of fuel in the hot Florida sun will hold more than 50 lbs of fuel in the cold Wisconsin winter because 50 lbs of cold fuel takes up less volume than 50 lbs of hot fuel.

 

 

That's exactly what I have been saying.

 

And the bolded part is the point that seems to fly right by others.

 

Gasoline is measure by volume at a specific temperature. 231 cubic inches at 60 degrees. Vary the temp and the volume changes.

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1 minute ago, Originalsterm said:

The argument, I think, is that he would build the system to be a set number of gallons AT A SPECIFIC TEMPERATURE, which isn't the same amount of gas AT A DIFFERENT TEMPERATURE.  So 15 gallons wouldn't equal 15 gallons if the temperature is significantly different.  The system is the same size, but it was sized at a different temperature than it was tested at, so the number of gallons pumped out wouldn't be what it was designed for.

 

This is wrong. You are conflating the volume of the container with the volume of a fixed MASS of fuel.

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3 minutes ago, Bandit said:

That's exactly what I have been saying.

 

And the bolded part is the point that seems to fly right by others.

 

Gasoline is measure by volume at a specific temperature. 231 cubic inches at 60 degrees. Vary the temp and the volume changes.

We are measuring volume!!!! We don’t care about weight.  It makes no difference here.  

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2 minutes ago, gavro said:

 

This is wrong. You are conflating the volume of the container with the volume of a fixed MASS of fuel.

 

This is not wrong, this is the angle some racers would approach the problem.  I read the rule as the volume of the fuel system in your car, not the volume of fuel you'd like to run with, so I agree with you.  I think the rule might need to be reworded to avoid the loop holes people will try to exploit.

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1 minute ago, Bandit said:

That's exactly what I have been saying.

 

And the bolded part is the point that seems to fly right by others.

 

Gasoline is measure by volume at a specific temperature. 231 cubic inches at 60 degrees. Vary the temp and the volume changes.

 

Without knowing for sure, I'm guessing that 231 cubic inches at 60 degrees is the arbitrary volume and temperature that somebody in the government decided would be the standard for commercial fuel pumps, because it's too hard to measure the mass of fuel flowing through a pump and into a car.

 

But you're citing something (the standard for commercial fuel pumps) that does not apply to the situation at hand. The fuel pump volume is not what will be used to measure the capacity of your car, nor should you rely on the fuel pump stated volume when sizing your system.

 

What the BCCR says tech will do, is take containers of a known volume and fill them with fuel. Let's say the container is exactly 5 gallons. Depending on the temperature of fuel coming out of the pump, the pump may  say something slightly more or slightly less than 5 gallons because it is calibrated to 231 cubic inches at 60 degrees, but tech isn't (or shouldn't be) going by what the pump says, they are going by what the "known container" says.

 

You should do the same when you size your system. Do not go to the gas station and fill up an unknown container with what the pump tells you is 5 gallons because it may not be 5 galloons. Buy your fuel, let it come to ambient temperature, and then find an accurate way to measure the volume of the fuel at that temperature, then start dumping it into your car. 

 

I think we agree on this very important point - if you rely on the volume stated by the gas station fuel pump, you may very well size your system incorrectly.

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1 minute ago, Originalsterm said:

The argument, I think, is that he would build the system to be a set number of gallons AT A SPECIFIC TEMPERATURE, which isn't the same amount of gas AT A DIFFERENT TEMPERATURE.  So 15 gallons wouldn't equal 15 gallons if the temperature is significantly different.  The system is the same size, but it was sized at a different temperature than it was tested at, so the number of gallons pumped out wouldn't be what it was designed for.

This still isnt it.  The system itself has a fixed volume.  Do we even agree on this?

 

When you fill that system, with no other outside inputs, that volume of liquid is equal to the fixed volume of the system.

 

Adding an outside input, such as temperature change, the liquid volume can change, but the system volume does not.

 

THEREFORE, when you spec your system in Brazil or Norway or Afghanistan, the SYSTEM volume is always the same value. (I will concede that temp change leading to material expansion would change the volume of your system, but lets be real, this is a negligible value)

 

Now, if you were doing the math based on A/F, Engine VE, vehicle weight, drag, ect, and you calculated you needed X amount of chemical potential energy to get to the 2 hour mark, you would then calculate how many gallons of fuel would be need in order to have that much energy.  This calculation WOULD change based on temperature!

 

TLDR? the system has a fixed volume, and as long as that volume is measured with the test fluid at a constant temp, the test fluid volume would also remain constant.

 

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

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8 minutes ago, Clapped Out Racing said:

This still isnt it.  The system itself has a fixed volume.  Do we even agree on this?

 

When you fill that system, with no other outside inputs, that volume of liquid is equal to the fixed volume of the system.

 

Adding an outside input, such as temperature change, the liquid volume can change, but the system volume does not.

 

THEREFORE, when you spec your system in Brazil or Norway or Afghanistan, the SYSTEM volume is always the same value. (I will concede that temp change leading to material expansion would change the volume of your system, but lets be real, this is a negligible value)

 

Now, if you were doing the math based on A/F, Engine VE, vehicle weight, drag, ect, and you calculated you needed X amount of chemical potential energy to get to the 2 hour mark, you would then calculate how many gallons of fuel would be need in order to have that much energy.  This calculation WOULD change based on temperature!

 

TLDR? the system has a fixed volume, and as long as that volume is measured with the test fluid at a constant temp, the test fluid volume would also remain constant.

 

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

Don't take this as me arguing with you, I agree!  The point I'm trying to make is how the loop hole/tech arguments are going to go based on what I think is going on in this thread.

 

You have a 15 gallons system from the factory, you move the vent and tweek the fill tube knowing you are allowed +2 gallons.  You fiddle at home to get to 17 gallons because you are allowed to have this much fixed volume in your car.  You will do this by dumping fuel in until you get to that magic number, but you may have done this at an extreme temperature.  When you get to the track and get protested, you might pump out 17.5 gallons because the fuel is at a different temperature than what you designed at home.

 

The only REAL argument I can see with this rule is what does a stock system ACTUALLY hold?  The owner's manual might state 15, but if you really try you might be able to put 16 gallons in.  Other stock systems might state 15 and actually hold 15, both of these cars are legally allowed to run 17 gallons, but who gets the advantage?  I think the temperature argument isn't really the root of this problem at all, I think people might have a sneaky system and what to poke holes in the rule.

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2 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

Don't take this as me arguing with you, I agree!  The point I'm trying to make is how the loop hole/tech arguments are going to go based on what I think is going on in this thread.

 

You have a 15 gallons system from the factory, you move the vent and tweek the fill tube knowing you are allowed +2 gallons.  You fiddle at home to get to 17 gallons because you are allowed to have this much fixed volume in your car.  You will do this by dumping fuel in until you get to that magic number, but you may have done this at an extreme temperature.  When you get to the track and get protested, you might pump out 17.5 gallons because the fuel is at a different temperature than what you designed at home.

 

The only REAL argument I can see with this rule is what does a stock system ACTUALLY hold?  The owner's manual might state 15, but if you really try you might be able to put 16 gallons in.  Other stock systems might state 15 and actually hold 15, both of these cars are legally allowed to run 17 gallons, but who gets the advantage?  I think the temperature argument isn't really the root of this problem at all, I think people might have a sneaky system and what to poke holes in the rule.

You are still missing the point.

 

The only gaming would come from cooling your fuel before filling your car during a race. You will still add the same volume of fuel but that fuel will have more mass and therefore more energy. ChampCar doesn’t care about fuel mass because it would be hard to enforce. Volume is easy to enforce. Volume is volume.

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Well, if you do it at an extreme temp, then you are gaming the system and you should expect to get smacked down.

 

Just simply fill your car to the tippy top.  Then pump it out till it won't come out any more.  Then fill again to the tippy top and see how much fuel that took.  Thats your fuel system capacity.  

 

I don't see how people can really game this.  Changing the temp of the fuel would be pretty obvious. 

 

Getting back to the REAL issue at hand.....

 

What is the reasoning behind this change?

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

You are still missing the point.

 

The only gaming would come from cooling your fuel before filling your car during a race. You will still add the same volume of fuel but that fuel will have more mass and therefore more energy. ChampCar doesn’t care about fuel mass because it would be hard to enforce. Volume is easy to enforce. Volume is volume.

I’m not missing anything. I understand how this works, I don’t think there is an actual problem. I’m just trying to connect the dots for both sides of those arguing. I think to support the argument that temperature matters, a team would have to provide the data that shows what their car has at both of the extreme temps and how this hinders them. TAC (or BOD) can decide to overturn this rule if the numbers are sound. 

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