Jump to content

Speed creep vs cost creep


 Share

Recommended Posts

On 9/6/2021 at 1:45 PM, MR2 Biohazard said:

And I one of the most vocal that free stuff does not equal speed. A lot of free stuff equal reliability, which some argue equals speed, but I define reliable as finishing a race as we all go flat out nowadays anyway. So we can agree to disagree and continue to discuss/argue otherwise.

 

Aluminum radiator used to have points associated with it.  Now it free.  Those points are going into something else to make the car faster.  Period. 

 

The argument is it saves teams money.  Well sure it might save some teams money because they don't have to seek out old rare parts, but the speed creep going to cost me a lot of money.  We race at Nelson Ledges a lot.  In 2018 our lap times were on par with the average FTD of the top 10 cars - and we finished on the podium.  In 2021 with the same car we are like 3.5 seconds per lap behind the average of the top 10.   We went from the podium in 2018 to almost slowest on single lap time in 2021.  These are facts. 

 

Our VPI is down from 474 (back in 2012) to 388 and we've added parts to the car.  Hmmm.

 

So yes we have points for a swap, but now I've got the expense of acquiring, adapting, tuning a new engine/trans combo plus the uncertainty that it can make two hours on a tank.  Also I guess I'll have to dispose all the old engine/trans at virtually no value since Saturn parts are not in much demand.  If I want to be competitive it will cost me money.   

 

The worst part is there is no bottom I can see.  This is going to keep going and I don't want to have to find another second of performance every year to keep up.  Every year it gets harder for true newbie teams to come into ChampCar and not be rolling chicanes.

 

The board is going to hear about this as soon as I get done with my research on how much cheaper the add on parts have become, and investigating VPI drops. 

 

 

Edited by mostmint
  • Like 11
  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mostmint said:

Aluminum radiator used to have points associated with it.  Now it free.  Those points are going into something else to make the car faster.  Period. 

 

The argument is it saves teams money.  Well sure it might save some teams money because they don't have to seek out old rare parts, but the speed creep going to cost me a lot of money.  We race at Nelson Ledges a lot.  In 2018 our lap times were on par with the average FTD of the top 10 cars - and we finished on the podium.  In 2021 with the same car we are like 3.5 seconds per lap behind the average of the top 10.   We went from the podium in 2018 to almost slowest on single lap time in 2021.  These are facts. 

 

Our VPI is down from 474 (back in 2012) to 388 and we've added parts to the car.  Hmmm.

 

So yes we have points for a swap, but now I've got the expense of acquiring, adapting, tuning a new engine/trans combo plus the uncertainty that it can make two hours on a tank.  Also I guess I'll have to dispose all the old engine/trans at virtually no value since Saturn parts are not in much demand.  If I want to be competitive it will cost me money.   

 

The worst part is there is no bottom I can see.  This is going to keep going and I don't want to have to find another second of performance every year to keep up.  Every year it gets harder for true newbie teams to come into ChampCar and not be rolling chicanes.

 

The board is going to hear about this as soon as I get done with my research on how much cheaper the add on parts have become, and investigating VPI drops. 

 

 

 

The way I see it is that certain things that are free should have been free in the first place to make life easy and save people money.

I don't think the intention with free parts is to make the series faster, fancier or more expensive.

 

So during this "correction" things will change for teams. 

 

It could also go the opposite way, for instance if a certain car gets a VPI increase then you might have to throw away fast parts and buy slow parts.

Slow parts are necessarily not cheaper (for instance revalved Bilstein B8 + lowering springs about the same cost as entry level coil overs. ).

(In my opinion the goal should be to have alignment related mods free, entry level coil overs low points, reliability mods free. Engine mods can cost points, swaps can be expensive, aero can cost points. Those all cost money)

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

215 hp 97 explorer engine w/long headers, cam, al heads and a few bolt ons

150 points w a 350 and a 4 speed. Doesn't take much to make 350+ HP

17 hours ago, turbogrill said:

Why not something light and modern? The camaro seems super heavy?

 

I assume these cars are expensive to buy now? So would be a very pricey build?

again 150 points gives you a lot of room to work with and probably can get it around 2800

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mostmint said:

Aluminum radiator used to have points associated with it.  Now it free.  Those points are going into something else to make the car faster.  Period. 

 

The argument is it saves teams money.  Well sure it might save some teams money because they don't have to seek out old rare parts, but the speed creep going to cost me a lot of money.  We race at Nelson Ledges a lot.  In 2018 our lap times were on par with the average FTD of the top 10 cars - and we finished on the podium.  In 2021 with the same car we are like 3.5 seconds per lap behind the average of the top 10.   We went from the podium in 2018 to almost slowest on single lap time in 2021.  These are facts. 

 

Our VPI is down from 474 (back in 2012) to 388 and we've added parts to the car.  Hmmm.

 

So yes we have points for a swap, but now I've got the expense of acquiring, adapting, tuning a new engine/trans combo plus the uncertainty that it can make two hours on a tank.  Also I guess I'll have to dispose all the old engine/trans at virtually no value since Saturn parts are not in much demand.  If I want to be competitive it will cost me money.   

 

The worst part is there is no bottom I can see.  This is going to keep going and I don't want to have to find another second of performance every year to keep up.  Every year it gets harder for true newbie teams to come into ChampCar and not be rolling chicanes.

 

The board is going to hear about this as soon as I get done with my research on how much cheaper the add on parts have become, and investigating VPI drops. 

 

 

and welcome to the shitshow that we all love to hate...

 

You are correct in what you are saying as it has been a moving target ever since I started back in 2011.  But as others have said that some free parts should have been free from the beginning (or at least in the last 4-5 years as the early years were a total cluster F***) is how I view this and I just hope that the ever expanding list of free stuff will end soon.  But your point that parts that did cost and are now free allows people to get fast parts is spot on.  But as a whole I think it's better for the series to have cars that are more reliable to make the racing more exciting.  @troyI 100% agree with you on this point.  I would much rather end a race with all of the cars running and the top 10 all on the same lap.

 

But as racers we will always try to get faster and some of that is car improvements and some of that is driver improvements.  But it's the nature of the beast we all call racing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mostmint said:

The board is going to hear about this as soon as I get done with my research on how much cheaper the add on parts have become, and investigating VPI drops. 

 

 

Agreed 100%. I wish this series had some way to have rules stability where instead of constantly spending money to make our cars faster, we could spend the money on more entry fees. 
 

Maybe this is the opportunity for the discussion on points class structure to pop back up. I feel like there needs to be some way for teams to have stability and low running costs if they want them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff
2 hours ago, mostmint said:

Aluminum radiator used to have points associated with it.  Now it free.  Those points are going into something else to make the car faster.  Period. 

 

The argument is it saves teams money.  Well sure it might save some teams money because they don't have to seek out old rare parts, but the speed creep going to cost me a lot of money.  We race at Nelson Ledges a lot.  In 2018 our lap times were on par with the average FTD of the top 10 cars - and we finished on the podium.  In 2021 with the same car we are like 3.5 seconds per lap behind the average of the top 10.   We went from the podium in 2018 to almost slowest on single lap time in 2021.  These are facts. 

 

Our VPI is down from 474 (back in 2012) to 388 and we've added parts to the car.  Hmmm.

 

So yes we have points for a swap, but now I've got the expense of acquiring, adapting, tuning a new engine/trans combo plus the uncertainty that it can make two hours on a tank.  Also I guess I'll have to dispose all the old engine/trans at virtually no value since Saturn parts are not in much demand.  If I want to be competitive it will cost me money.   

 

The worst part is there is no bottom I can see.  This is going to keep going and I don't want to have to find another second of performance every year to keep up.  Every year it gets harder for true newbie teams to come into ChampCar and not be rolling chicanes.

 

The board is going to hear about this as soon as I get done with my research on how much cheaper the add on parts have become, and investigating VPI drops. 

 

 

I get the main point there, speed has increased. I just do not agree a free radiator is the real cause. To me, a stock radiator works fine, an alum one at 10 points, if people took it, they had spare points. I did not see anyone saying, I have to have an alum radiator and can not do the speed part I really want. No one does that so saying if we get this free part it will equal speed is not reality. You could make and alum rad 1000 points and all the cars will be just the same speed, just use a stock radiator that can cost 5x as much, which does not make sense.

 

I think we need to get the real reason cars are faster now. It is not free parts. Sure, teams are better and drivers are better, but there has been a big speed increase lately. There are really only two things that make cars faster (Driver excluded here) HP and Tires. HP has gone up for some and some cars have a lot to start with so that is a factor also, but the main thing I think is tires.

 

What tires do you run now, have run in the past? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff
9 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

 

Maybe this is the opportunity for the discussion on points class structure to pop back up. I feel like there needs to be some way for teams to have stability and low running costs if they want them. 

I do plan to petition that again. It seemed well received, but a very few vocal people got it crushed as they might not get the participation trophy. I will do some new research on it and see how it will work out now with the new speed the series has. Maybe now with the speed it will make more sense to have classes based on points. I will do some research and share in the future.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I get the main point there, speed has increased. I just do not agree a free radiator is the real cause. To me, a stock radiator works fine, an alum one at 10 points, if people took it, they had spare points. I did not see anyone saying, I have to have an alum radiator and can not do the speed part I really want. No one does that so saying if we get this free part it will equal speed is not reality. You could make and alum rad 1000 points and all the cars will be just the same speed, just use a stock radiator that can cost 5x as much, which does not make sense.

 

I think we need to get the real reason cars are faster now. It is not free parts. Sure, teams are better and drivers are better, but there has been a big speed increase lately. There are really only two things that make cars faster (Driver excluded here) HP and Tires. HP has gone up for some and some cars have a lot to start with so that is a factor also, but the main thing I think is tires.

 

What tires do you run now, have run in the past? 

We run Potenza RE71R 205/50/15.  Before that we ran the older version and testing showed those were about 1 second per lap slower than the RE71R.

 

Most teams are using as many points as they can.  I’m choosing not to since I don’t want to just keep throwing cash at it.  And that radiator hasn’t always been 10 points.  Also it’s not just the radiator that is just one example.  Please tell me that if your swap went down by 30 points that you would just keep running the car the same.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

 

Maybe this is the opportunity for the discussion on points class structure to pop back up. I feel like there needs to be some way for teams to have stability and low running costs if they want them. 

  We can try it but I’ll be in the lowest point class getting passed by the leaders every 15 minutes.  It is the beginning of class racing because low point cars will have a very hard time running up front.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, mostmint said:

 

 

Our VPI is down from 474 (back in 2012) to 388 and we've added parts to the car.  Hmmm.

 

Our car was a 485 point car when we entered our 1st race (2015) it is no a 400 point car with more mods including intake and carb. And we are still running a 305. We can go to a 350 and aluminum heads and be under 500. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

Our car was a 485 point car when we entered our 1st race (2015) it is no a 400 point car with more mods including intake and carb. And we are still running a 305. We can go to a 350 and aluminum heads and be under 500. 

no speed creep in that at all.............free parts 🙂

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I get the main point there, speed has increased. I just do not agree a free radiator is the real cause. To me, a stock radiator works fine, an alum one at 10 points, if people took it, they had spare points. I did not see anyone saying, I have to have an alum radiator and can not do the speed part I really want. No one does that so saying if we get this free part it will equal speed is not reality. You could make and alum rad 1000 points and all the cars will be just the same speed, just use a stock radiator that can cost 5x as much, which does not make sense.

 

I think we need to get the real reason cars are faster now. It is not free parts. Sure, teams are better and drivers are better, but there has been a big speed increase lately. There are really only two things that make cars faster (Driver excluded here) HP and Tires. HP has gone up for some and some cars have a lot to start with so that is a factor also, but the main thing I think is tires.

 

 

You are always saying this. But no matter how much you do, it isn't going to make it any less false. Just stop.

 

 

  • Thanks 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did anyone take a points for a radiator for performance/reliability?

 

I took points for my Datsun to save money and save me hassle, but I also had 350pts to spend. The alum radiator is $150, stock one >$300. 

 

But true! That datsun now has 10pts to spend on something! Like $80 camber bushings :)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff
1 hour ago, mostmint said:

We run Potenza RE71R 205/50/15.  Before that we ran the older version and testing showed those were about 1 second per lap slower than the RE71R.

 

Most teams are using as many points as they can.  I’m choosing not to since I don’t want to just keep throwing cash at it.  And that radiator hasn’t always been 10 points.  Also it’s not just the radiator that is just one example.  Please tell me that if your swap went down by 30 points that you would just keep running the car the same.  

If my swap when down 30 points. hmmm.  I think I have my car right where I want it now to be honest. My issues is that I have blown up every race for the last two years. I just need to get that under control, I think I have, but time will tell. Maybe a trans cooler, but that added complexity adds another thing to fail, and I do not really have trans issues, but it might help, hard to say and that is a debate on its own. I have had a ton of aero and removed most of it as it added weight and not speed. I have tried most things to add speed and found that most do not really do it. Driver skill is the biggest thing to do at this point as teams have really stepped up their game.  I have adjusted a ton of things in the past and found only two things really make a speed difference. HP and Tires. Tires, if I could afford to run them, I would run the Coopers or maybe try the CR-1. HP, I already have headers and an ecu to tune what I can out of it. I think my HP is right where I want to be with the amount of fuel I have. If I added hp it would just take away form time on track and hurt me. Balance is the key.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff
38 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

 

You are always saying this. But no matter how much you do, it isn't going to make it any less false. Just stop.

 

 

Then prove me wrong and show me. Give me a real example of someone doing something different than what I am stating. A real world one, not a made up, one in a million, that no one actually have done or would do. Then I will do as you command good sir, and stop, or should I say Shut Up as the team name says.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Then prove me wrong and show me. Give me a real example of someone doing something different than what I am stating. A real world one, not a made up, one in a million, that no one actually have done or would do. Then I will do as you command good sir, and stop, or should I say Shut Up as the team name says.

Listen, I know you can't type coherent statements. Not my problem. I also know you apparently don't understand coherent statements. Also not my problem.

 

Here is an example;

Differentials used to cost points for E30's. Many teams, including my own, used a 4.10 for 25 pts. Those then became free (thanks RVA/Champcar). So now we have aero. Our car is faster, and for less points.

 

Does that work? Or is that one in a million?

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff
20 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

Listen, I know you can't type coherent statements. Not my problem. I also know you apparently don't understand coherent statements. Also not my problem.

 

Here is an example;

Differentials used to cost points for E30's. Many teams, including my own, used a 4.10 for 25 pts. Those then became free (thanks RVA/Champcar). So now we have aero. Our car is faster, and for less points.

 

Does that work? Or is that one in a million?

 

 

 

Dude, why the personal bashing? What is up with that? Have I done something to you personally in the past that has caused you to personally come after me? Have I come after you in some way on the forum in the past? Just trying to figure out if it was me that caused this or not.

 

That is a good example. Is this and E30 only rule? I thought a different rear diff ratio or LSD was points. I just looked at the rules and says you can swap in any for free. Must be nice. I wonder how many cars that really effects or if it really only helps e30's. Maybe some older muscle cars?

 

In that case then we should take that free diff away then. Maybe a petition to do so would help.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff

Also, I wonder if we have a master list of the items that have turned free and also ones that used to be free and now are points. Maybe if I have time I can go through the old BCCR's to make a list. Then we can really see what has changed long term. Hubs were free and now 2.5 points, headers for swaps, flywheels, radiators, ect. 

 

For me

I was at 500 points in Bio1. I have a swap, for anyone that did not know.

I got a 25 point increase due to headers not included anymore.

I also got a 10 point increase for the alum radiator. I could have bought an oem one at 440, but no thanks.

I also got a 10 point increase on an alum flywheel.

I also get 5 points for hubs that used to be free.

I went up 50 points and got 5 laps.

If raced I was just going to race EC at point, but dismantled it to make a new car.

 

So my perspective of all these so called free items making speed creep might be for other teams as I am not seeing it for myself at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee
53 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Also, I wonder if we have a master list of the items that have turned free and also ones that used to be free and now are points. Maybe if I have time I can go through the old BCCR's to make a list. Then we can really see what has changed long term. Hubs were free and now 2.5 points, headers for swaps, flywheels, radiators, ect. 

 

For me

I was at 500 points in Bio1. I have a swap, for anyone that did not know.

I got a 25 point increase due to headers not included anymore.

I also got a 10 point increase for the alum radiator. I could have bought an oem one at 440, but no thanks.

I also got a 10 point increase on an alum flywheel.

I also get 5 points for hubs that used to be free.

I went up 50 points and got 5 laps.

If raced I was just going to race EC at point, but dismantled it to make a new car.

 

So my perspective of all these so called free items making speed creep might be for other teams as I am not seeing it for myself at all. 

 

The list above is a classic example of SOME of the things that people used to run on their cars and NEVER claimed.

In recent years, CC has identified this as being a problem - all teams should be able to read the rulebook and come away with similar understanding of what's allowed and what's not. In the spirit of keeping things fair, instead of some teams hiding items and not claiming them, the TAC, BoD, Tech and others worked to assign point values to these type of items that went previously unclaimed. 

 

How would the membership feel if the groups I mentioned above were "in the know" and ran certain parts for free (unclaimed), while some, or the rest of the membership felt they would be assigned points if they did the same?  

 

Why should swap cars get free headers when non swaps can't? 

Which car came with an aluminum flywheel? 

How would folks feel if I put $700 hubs on my car as a TAC member but didn't tell anybody?

What if @Andrew D Johnson runs an aluminum flywheel on his Honda and doesn't tell anybody? Does that make it ok? He and I both do, and we both lobbied heavily to have them cost us points to run them!

Just as we worked to assign points to hubs - which were 10 at one point until a former Tech Official let his buddy making hubs for small cars influence his decision and talk our CEO into lowering them to 2.5.

I'd like to think we can do better than that as an organization moving forward.

 

The E30 diff ratio discovery at NCM championship one year was the beginning of uncovering these items that some teams knew they could run and some did not. 

How is it fair for some to know unwritten rules and take advantage of them when others didn't know? I'm describing the earlier days when a lot of teams did that and got away with it. Was it fair? I don't think so.

 

Long story short - if anyone was using some of the parts on that list, they should have been claiming them all along. Again, each time a part is determined to be "free" or no points, it allows those points to be used elsewhere. 

I think most everyone would then use the freed up points on something else needed, whether it be another reliability item, or a go fast item such as a wing.

 

Edited by mcoppola
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee

P.S. You've almost got me sold on some of your ideas regarding point values for reliability items vs speed items, and maybe even on the camber/caster thing being little or no points for most cars. But these things must be done in such asway that points don't become available to further promote speed creep. Period.

 

Example: I have some points left to play with on my car. We've recently raced it and found we are somewhat competitive. I need some points to fix reliability items (rear hubs, bearings, stub axles = 25 points.)  I also am told I can go 2-3 seconds a lap faster with a wing, splitter and air dam (30 pts.)

I need 10-20 points free'd up to do both the reliability fix and the speed improvement. 

Next year an aluminum Flywheel is free. (I again lobbied against this.) There's 10 - if I can get back 5 more, I will guarantee you my car will be faster and more reliable after making the mods I mentioned. 

Speed creep via available points explained...

Edited by mcoppola
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Dude, why the personal bashing? What is up with that? Have I done something to you personally in the past that has caused you to personally come after me? Have I come after you in some way on the forum in the past? Just trying to figure out if it was me that caused this or not.

 

That is a good example. Is this and E30 only rule? I thought a different rear diff ratio or LSD was points. I just looked at the rules and says you can swap in any for free. Must be nice. I wonder how many cars that really effects or if it really only helps e30's. Maybe some older muscle cars?

 

In that case then we should take that free diff away then. Maybe a petition to do so would help.

 

 

 

You asked for an example. I gave you one.

 

I don't care to dissect it. I didn't ask for it, and I was against it. Same with the BS E30 swap weight.

 

You can try to trivialize every example of free parts being used to make cars faster. Doesn't change the fact that 100% of the time, allowing free parts, allows speed creep.

 

 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Also, I wonder if we have a master list of the items that have turned free and also ones that used to be free and now are points. Maybe if I have time I can go through the old BCCR's to make a list. Then we can really see what has changed long term. Hubs were free and now 2.5 points, headers for swaps, flywheels, radiators, ect. 

 

For me

I was at 500 points in Bio1. I have a swap, for anyone that did not know.

I got a 25 point increase due to headers not included anymore.

I also got a 10 point increase for the alum radiator. I could have bought an oem one at 440, but no thanks.

I also got a 10 point increase on an alum flywheel.

I also get 5 points for hubs that used to be free.

I went up 50 points and got 5 laps.

If raced I was just going to race EC at point, but dismantled it to make a new car.

 

So my perspective of all these so called free items making speed creep might be for other teams as I am not seeing it for myself at all. 

Hubs were actually 10 pts each as a suspension component, but for some reason never enforced.  It was REDUCED to 5 pts total.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ChampCar Staff
54 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

 

You asked for an example. I gave you one.

 

I don't care to dissect it. I didn't ask for it, and I was against it. Same with the BS E30 swap weight.

 

You can try to trivialize every example of free parts being used to make cars faster. Doesn't change the fact that 100% of the time, allowing free parts, allows speed creep.

 

 

OK then.  How do we promote finishing races and reliability items for teams and not free up points to add to much speed? How do we help promote keeping costs down also?  I think there should be a solution. I think reliability items should be free and encouraged.  I know I am in the minority and that is fine, that is the world I usually live in. 

 

On the bold statement of 100% of the time allowing free parts allows speed creep. We will agree to disagree.

 

2 hours ago, mcoppola said:

P.S. You've almost got me sold on some of your ideas regarding point values for reliability items vs speed items, and maybe even on the camber/caster thing being little or no points for most cars. But these things must be done in such asway that points don't become available to further promote speed creep. Period.

I still think there should be a way to promote reliability and not just throw those away by saying speed creep. That just sucks. There has to be a solution to promote finishing races so teams can have a great time, we can have great battles and all have great memories come Monday. The anytime an item is considered free to promote teams finishing races is something we should try to overcome.

 

Maybe we take the top 20-30 platforms run. Have a big excel and do positive or negatives of each item for all platforms. Maybe a list of what each platform needs to be competitive and what reliability items they should or could have. Then we can see, in a chart form, side by side, what actually matters. Then if we say, alum rad are free, we can say, that will free up points for X and Y, which then they can use points to add a wing and go this much faster. Or we can say, platforms A-G all do not need a free alum rad, but platform Y does. More things to work on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...