Question - Spec Classes

[Bill Strong]

Posted up as a ChampCar member, and not as an official STAFF or BOD decision or question.

As one of the guys that gets to attend every ChampCar race for the past 4 years, one question has come up quite a few times. Especially out west.
"Can I run my Spec Tuna Slapper in your series for the overall win."

On 180TW+ treadwear, using pads that work with those tires, racing at the legal spec weight, with only body mods allowed within that spec class. 

We would weigh the cars after the race. (I have a set of scales)
We can see the performance between the same cars to determine if someone is running a cheaty drivetrain,etc.
No aero.
No wide tires.

Just run the car as you would within your spec class.
 

Doing this could bolster our west numbers, and bring new people into the ChampCar domain. 
 

discuss

[Team Infiniti]

During a recent random track day, I had opportunity to ride shotgun in a winning spec E30,. Based on that experience, in their race trim (including Slicks), I would say no until experiencing the same car on 200ish treadwear tires.

 

How fast are the spec cars without their tires?

[turbogrill]

Looking at the laptimes at COTA for the above:

Spec MX-5: 2:34.5
Spec Boxster: 2:35 

Spec Miata: 2:41

Spec E30: 2.41
Fast Champcars: 2:39-2:43

 

First I am surprised the spec boxsters are so fast?  How much slower would they be on 200TW tires?

 

• Yes to the Spec Miata.
• Yes to the Spec E30 
• Maybe on SPB, depends on the weight between a SPB and champ boxster.
• No to Spec MX-5. (They are not much that more heavier than a NORMAL chump NC)

With the Spec MX-5 you are essentially racing a ~900pts car with 235 tires instead of 255 tires. And weight wise you are maybe 300lbs heavier than grant but similar weight as our car. Spec MX-5 are 2500lbs with driver and ~170whp (high comp piston and CNC head) and great suspension.

edit:
I am also up for a trial for 1 year, it it doesn't work it get revoked.

Edited October 5, 2021 by turbogrill

[Grufton]

Seems like you could tally the points for all of the allowable mods and make a list.  Spec E30 (on our tires) = XXX points and so forth.

 

There are likely differences in safety rules that would need to be addressed though.  A lot of SM cars don't have fire systems for example.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Grufton
tires...

[enginerd]

So the gist is basically this:

 

These cars would probably be EC under ChampCar rules because of some suspension mods and such, but they aren't actually faster than ChampCars because they have high minimum weights. Should these cars be given an EC exemption because we know that they actually won't run away with the race?

 

Depends on the spec class for sure. I can see spec miata and spec e30 being fine. Spec e30 is definitely slower than a ChampCar prepped e30. Be careful though.... I can see a situation where people start requesting one-off exemptions where it takes on the look of bracket racing "I drive my c7 corvette poorly and its laptimes are no faster than a spec miata, therefore I want to race in ChampCar D-class with the same exemption because I also won't run away with the race".

[turbogrill]

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

have high minimum weights.

 

If Spec weight is much more than champcar then yes, otherwise no.

[Andrew D Johnson]

4 minutes ago, enginerd said:

So the gist is basically this:

 

These cars would probably be EC under ChampCar rules because of some suspension mods and such, but they aren't actually faster than ChampCars because they have high minimum weights. Should these cars be given an EC exemption because we know that they actually won't run away with the race?

 

Depends on the spec class for sure. I can see spec miata and spec e30 being fine. Spec e30 is definitely slower than a ChampCar prepped e30. Be careful though.... I can see a situation where people start requesting one-off exemptions where it takes on the look of bracket racing "I drive my c7 corvette poorly and its laptimes are no faster than a spec miata, therefore I want to race in ChampCar D-class with the same exemption because I also won't run away with the race".

Yea, pretty much this. 

If we can tech a spec miata or spec e30, I would be fine allowing them to race for the overall. 

[Chris Huggins]

Yes, I support this for the classes listed.

 

I don't know much about spec boxter.

 

Spec 30, Specpinata, Spec944 are definitely slower than the top 20% of the field, even on toyos.

 

Spece46, Spec Vette, Spec mx5= no - too fast and too expensive even on street tires.

 

 

The other issue is that these classes have some rules that are in DIRECT VIOLATION of our rules, in cases which are not related to points/vpi and which are not easily fixable (ie tires).  We would need to carefully consider revising our rules to allow this, because Nasa/SCCA certainly aren't going to revise theirs.

 

Specifically, an example:

1.  Kill switch location (fixed for 2022)

2. Window glass - required for specE30 (in certain locations) but not permitted for champcar.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Chris Huggins

[petawawarace]

quick look at the spec boxster rules and a full blown car could be 700-800pts.  I would say no to Spec Boxster.

Spec Miata, Spec E30, and Spec 944 look like they should be fine.  

It may introduce more confusion in impound, but if it expands the series it could be worth it.  

 

You would also need to be careful about the fuel rules. I think you would need to have a clause that regardless, the cars must conform to the fuel capacity rules we use in Champcar.  

[ABR-Glen]

Seems like the right way to assimilate cars like this to the CC ruleset is to just assign a VPI to them as though they are an OEM configuration.  

[thewheelerZ]

I think its a great idea.  Even spec Boxster can come in at 5X0 points? (540? 550? who knows).

 

I suspect there would be plenty of people that would be able point out spec items in impound.  Maybe we ammend rules that spec cars violate? If E30 runs with glass, why cant we?

[enginerd]

1 hour ago, ABR-Glen said:

Seems like the right way to assimilate cars like this to the CC ruleset is to just assign a VPI to them as though they are an OEM configuration.  

I agree they should get slots on the VPI table like any other model / engine / year. But we should set them all to 500. I think it would be too much trouble for tech to assign a "proper" VPI to these cars which would then allow further modification. It would also defeat the purpose of someone bringing their unmodified spec car in the first place.

Edited October 5, 2021 by enginerd

[turbogrill]

Why are they running glass? 

Can't they just have 2 sets of door? 1 chump door and 1 E30 door. 

[petawawarace]

23 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Defnitely. But we should set them all to 500. I think it would be too much trouble for tech to assign a "proper" VPI to these cars which would then allow further modification. It would also defeat the purpose of someone bringing their unmodified spec car in the first place.

I think this is just asking for all sorts of confusion.  The whole reason for VPI is to allow different parts to be added to the car. Thats not what we want here. It'll get stupid confusing.

 

- Spec Miata, Spec E30, and Spec 944 cars are eligible to compete for overall victory and respective classes (with 0 penalty laps) provided that they meet the following:

- Must meet current year NASA rules with the following exceptions

- All cars must follow Champcar fuel capacity rules for the year/make/model

- All cars must use tires with a minimum tread wear of 180 or greater.

- All Champcar pit stop rules and procedures apply 

- Flagtronics units must be installed.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by petawawarace

[Bill Strong]

14 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Why are they running glass? 

Can't they just have 2 sets of door? 1 chump door and 1 E30 door. 

 

I believe its the back side and rear window glass.

[TimS]

17 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Why are they running glass? 

Can't they just have 2 sets of door? 1 chump door and 1 E30 door. 

Not door glass. 1/4 panel and rear glass usually in scca and NASA 

[Chris Huggins]

22 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Why are they running glass? 

Can't they just have 2 sets of door? 1 chump door and 1 E30 door. 

Not in the doors, the back and sides.

 

im unclear if the back glass is required still or you can replace with poly.  The sides can be replaced as poly as an option, except for the quarter windows on the sedans must be left glass.

 

9.3.13.29.1 4 door models: Rear doors may be gutted and the movable glass assembly may be removed. The fixed glass must remain in the doors with all of its fastening hardware and trim pieces.

9.3.14.2 2 door cars: Rear passenger windows may be replaced with a clear polycarbonate material no less than 1/8” thick approximating the size and shape of the original. A NACA duct may be mounted on the window. Additionally, pop out windows me be replaced with a fixed mounted window and vice versa. Fasteners which allow for easy removal may be used. 4 door cars may install a fixed polycarbonate window. This rule does not apply to the Convertible as per 9.3.13.29.2

 

 

the point of this is to let them come without having to change.  We could also say “one chump suspension and one spec suspension” but that’s a hurdle to overcome.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Chris Huggins

[turbogrill]

haha that is a major pain in the ass. Swap between glass and lexan before the races. 

Does anyone know the speed difference between RE71r and the Spec tires? I have no clue.

 

[hotrod]

What is ChampCar doing wrong that we can not get higher participation on the west coast? Just asking. Changing rules to allow other "Series" cars come in is a slippery slope. IMO

[Bill Strong]

5 minutes ago, hotrod said:

What is ChampCar doing wrong that we can not get higher participation on the west coast? Just asking. Changing rules to allow other "Series" cars come in is a slippery slope. IMO

 

 

Other series like NASA and SCCA are having the same issues. We have been getting more than a handful of inquires about allow spec cars to race by So. Cal and Nor Cal teams.
If we can gain 5 teams that big out there for us. Maybe those guys then go and built a CCES spec car after participating, so we could build participation for the future.
It was also suggested at one point to allow this as an experiment at the west events only. Which would be easy to adjust the rules via the Supps. So no BCCR changes or updates. So we could test, tweak, and adjust, before making a final call on it nationally.

[enginerd]

31 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

I think this is just asking for all sorts of confusion.  The whole reason for VPI is to allow different parts to be added to the car. Thats not what we want here. It'll get stupid confusing.

 

- Spec Miata, Spec E30, and Spec 944 cars are eligible to compete for overall victory and respective classes (with 0 penalty laps) provided that they meet the following:

- Must meet current year NASA rules with the following exceptions

- All cars must follow Champcar fuel capacity rules for the year/make/model

- All cars must use tires with a minimum tread wear of 180 or greater.

- All Champcar pit stop rules and procedures apply 

- Flagtronics units must be installed.

 

 

Ok, that does make more sense.

[petawawarace]

Spec boxster VPI could be as follows:

 

Base VPI - 475pts

Adjustable dampers - 100pts

Swaybars - 40pts

Air dam and splitter - 20pts

Adjustable a-arms - 40pts

Accusump - 10pts

Oil Pan -25pts

trans cooler - 20pts

Oil cooler - 20pts

 

Total would be 750pts if you showed up and tried too use that car in regular Champcar rules. Plus they don't have any fuel capacity rules and are allowed cells.  

I think that's too much.

 

[CoachMK21]

Most above have said Spec Miata would be fine.  Since we just raced at PittRace, to compare times, the A class winner had a best lap of 2:05.4.  The Hoosier Super Tour race at the end of April had qualifying laps from 2:01.5 to 2:04.1 for the top 10.  I would guess the time difference from Hoosier SM7.5 to 180TW would be 2-3 seconds, so fairly comparable.  Maybe more, considering a Spec Miata weighs a minimum 2275 for the 1.6s, 2400 for 1.8s and 2425 for 1.8 VVTs.

 

Also for Spec Miata, fire systems are not mandatory, so there is a tech item to be clear on.  Also, SM must run OEM hardtop and rear glass.  The points on a SM build for ChampCar would be well below 500, so you'd want to specifically assign a 500 point value to SM, like mentioned above.

Edited October 5, 2021 by CoachMK21

[BollingerChump]

Why not allow for 3M impact film on the glass for the E30/others that have to carry glass for an SCCA/NASA class.  Seems like not too much to ask and they might have already done it.

[hotrod]

22 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

 

Other series like NASA and SCCA are having the same issues. We have been getting more than a handful of inquires about allow spec cars to race by So. Cal and Nor Cal teams.
If we can gain 5 teams that big out there for us. Maybe those guys then go and built a CCES spec car after participating, so we could build participation for the future.
It was also suggested at one point to allow this as an experiment at the west events only. Which would be easy to adjust the rules via the Supps. So no BCCR changes or updates. So we could test, tweak, and adjust, before making a final call on it nationally.

I could see it as a left coast only thing. Other than Monterey the west coast races must be in the red financially. If this would turn that around that would obviously be a positive. If not then it might be time to think about racing in the west.