turbogrill Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 Hi, If you want to swap the 318ti you would have to use the E36/7 swap value, but you can't make a E36/7 platform upgrade? Seems wrong? If you have to use the E36/7 swap value that would imply it's the same car. If you can't do the platform swap that implies it's a different car. For instance a E30 can't do a E36/7 platform upgrade since it's a different car. Since it's a different car it doesn't have to use the E36/7 swap value. But the poor 318ti gets nothing, neither it's own swap value or eligible for a platform upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelPal Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 pages of discussion for reference: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted October 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 minute ago, MichaelPal said: 6 pages of discussion for reference: That didn't go anywhere! I believed they discussed this in the TAC after that, so waiting for @Chris Huggins input. (Maybe bumping that thread would have been smarter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbright Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 4 hours ago, turbogrill said: That didn't go anywhere! I believed they discussed this in the TAC after that, so waiting for @Chris Huggins input. (Maybe bumping that thread would have been smarter). that thread is a mess with typical champcar diversion talk, Huggy made a lot of good points on how its should be a different car than the e36, but also why its dangerous to do so even with an adjusted SVP/swap weight. A 400pt LE5/K24/i6 from bmw swapped 318ti would be a weeeeeeee bit much. How you get the 318ti to fit in correctly is a PITA. its a low power hybrid e30/e36 with no power potential out of the current motor, different bellhousing/trans IIRC (so not a dead simple swap), plus an open smaller diff that does swap out with better platforms equipment, but the positives are it has a modest/large tank, moderate starting weight/lower race weight, and known suspension goodies abound (e36 in the front e30ish in the rear). how to balance the points so its equal with a built e30/e36/miata/sc300 is not a fun task for the TAC/BOD, so sticking it with the e36 platform is to keep it at bay for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted October 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, chbright said: that thread is a mess with typical champcar diversion talk, Huggy made a lot of good points on how its should be a different car than the e36, but also why its dangerous to do so even with an adjusted SVP/swap weight. A 400pt LE5/K24/i6 from bmw swapped 318ti would be a weeeeeeee bit much. How you get the 318ti to fit in correctly is a PITA. its a low power hybrid e30/e36 with no power potential out of the current motor, different bellhousing/trans IIRC (so not a dead simple swap), plus an open smaller diff that does swap out with better platforms equipment, but the positives are it has a modest/large tank, moderate starting weight/lower race weight, and known suspension goodies abound (e36 in the front e30ish in the rear). how to balance the points so its equal with a built e30/e36/miata/sc300 is not a fun task for the TAC/BOD, so sticking it with the e36 platform is to keep it at bay for now. Agree it's difficult! And we want things to be stable. Maybe it's best to keep things as is to not stir any drama. Why would it be so fast if it was it's own car? Let say a swap weight of 2350 is reasonable (380 lbs less then a E30, 200lbs more than a Maita). Added VPI New VPI New hp 50.50320227 401 163 51.64432016 402 167 55.21597637 405 172 63.04946208 413 177 77.74211348 428 182 102.3974929 452 187 140.48275 490 192 So at 450pts it would have similar HP as a swapped E30. It does have a smaller tank 13-14 gallon so would be slower than a E30. Then you would have 50pts extra for goodies. Would it be crazy fast? However this might screw up for existing teams if they get any free E36 parts Edited October 21, 2021 by turbogrill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbright Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, turbogrill said: Agree it's difficult! And we want things to be stable. Maybe it's best to keep things as is to not stir any drama. Why would it be so fast if it was it's own car? Let say a swap weight of 2350 is reasonable (380 lbs less then a E30, 200lbs more than a Maita). Added VPI New VPI New hp 50.50320227 401 163 51.64432016 402 167 55.21597637 405 172 63.04946208 413 177 77.74211348 428 182 102.3974929 452 187 140.48275 490 192 So at 450pts it would have similar HP as a swapped E30. It does have a smaller tank 13-14 gallon so would be slower than a E30. Then you would have 50pts extra for goodies. Would it be crazy fast? However this might screw up for existing teams if they get any free E36 parts So a 177hp k24z2 at 413 vpi. Sign me up with the extra "200lb" and extra fuel. Thats more hp than the na/NB swap and not a boatload more on the points, 200lb be damned. The suspension and "200lb less" on the Miata isnt worth the HP and fuel difference there in the slightest. Hell the E30/E36 guys would likely be tempted to go there with the fuel measurement rules of 2022 (or a i6 swap). Likely they will struggle to get the 2hr, so if you are able to make the same # of stops on a smaller tank 318ti, take the power, parts and all anyway vs the E30. The only real point that's never been 100% clarified is the fuel capacity. If Edmonds is the gospel on weight, what about fuel? Edmunds shows a 318ti from 1996 as 13.7 gal. Edmonds shows 17.2 for a 1994-1995. now if that's correct @ 17.2 that's LOLZNUTZ at 177hp and 413 point value for a E30/E36 mutant. At 13.7 gal at 177hp it's still only 12 points more than a 162hp le5 in a na8 so yeah I'll take the gal and PW. Or 162HP, same points and power for the free gal vs the Miata.... I know I'd again take a gal, diff points, and "200lb" extra lol. Edited October 21, 2021 by chbright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted October 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) So same ~415 pts you would pick the 318ti: - BMW 318ti: 13.7 gallon / 177hp - NB Miata: 12.9 gallon / 162hp I would think the Miata was a better deal due to it's handling capabilities! But what do I know... I had no clue the tank is also listed at 17.2! This will be very difficult when we allow Rolls Royce, they don't publish their numbers.... Edited October 21, 2021 by turbogrill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbright Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 30 minutes ago, turbogrill said: So same ~415 pts you would pick the 318ti: - BMW 318ti: 13.7 gallon / 177hp - NB Miata: 12.9 gallon / 162hp I would think the Miata was a better deal due to it's handling capabilities! But what do I know... I had no clue the tank is also listed at 17.2! This will be very difficult when we allow Rolls Royce, they don't publish their numbers.... the 17.2 is from Edmunds, not me: https://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/1995/st-65/features-specs/. take the internet for what it really is and skeptical of that number as all kinds of numbers have been posted. 13.7 is pretty rock bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espog Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 41 minutes ago, turbogrill said: So same ~415 pts you would pick the 318ti: - BMW 318ti: 13.7 gallon / 177hp - NB Miata: 12.9 gallon / 162hp I would think the Miata was a better deal due to it's handling capabilities! But what do I know... I had no clue the tank is also listed at 17.2! This will be very difficult when we allow Rolls Royce, they don't publish their numbers.... Which nb miata came with 162hp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbogrill Posted October 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 42 minutes ago, espog said: Which nb miata came with 162hp? The one with a ECOTEC swap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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