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Free spring rule


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3 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

 

Neat catalog. But I checked and in the Mazda section it has no listings for any version of the Miata, any version of RX7 or RX8. It has no BMW listings at all. How is that supposed to help tech in a series where those cars, which are not listed make up the majority of the entries at any race?

 

 

If Moog doesn't produce springs for that car, it won't be listed. Find out who supplies aftermarket springs for Miatas, BMWs, etc and see if they have a similar catalog. 

 

Drew asked about Neons, those are listed as are most North American cars. Tech might have to do their own leg work... ;)

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1 hour ago, mhr650 said:

 

Neat catalog. But I checked and in the Mazda section it has no listings for any version of the Miata, any version of RX7 or RX8. It has no BMW listings at all. How is that supposed to help tech in a series where those cars, which are not listed make up the majority of the entries at any race?

 

 

I used the NAPA site. They have specs on most car's springs. Definitely took me much longer than Mender's solution...

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2 hours ago, mender said:

If Moog doesn't produce springs for that car, it won't be listed. Find out who supplies aftermarket springs for Miatas, BMWs, etc and see if they have a similar catalog. 

 

Drew asked about Neons, those are listed as are most North American cars. Tech might have to do their own leg work... ;)

 

 

But these springs would still be points I assume?

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The rule book allows you to push the easy button for points. Or allows you to do research, modify, and put together a setup that is almost exactly [externally] like the stock springs. Part of the allure to the rule was if specs are this close it is almost impossible to enforce in the event the rules are written making this process points. 

Edited by veris
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6 minutes ago, veris said:

The rule book allows you to push the easy button for points. Or allows you to do research, modify, and put together a setup that is almost exactly [externally] like the stock springs. Part of the allure to the rule was if specs are this close it is almost impossible to enforce if the rule making this process points. 

 

Sounds very time consuming! In the end the spring is going to cost the same.

 

Seems like a lot of rules in this series rewards spending time and doesn't really focus on cost.

(Fender flares, camber adjustments, shocks, FWD intake for swaps, etc etc)

 

Edited by turbogrill
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4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

Sounds very time consuming! In the end the spring is going to cost the same.

 

Seems like a lot of rules in this series rewards spending time and doesn't really focus on cost.

(Fender flares, camber adjustments, shocks, etc etc)

 

The research is time consuming. 

 

The cost is definitely less; less than half. Around 25 to 30 dollars a corner for OE springs. 

 

I suspect it is because we started as a "builder" series.  

Edited by veris
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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Of witch we are still and should continue to "reward" those that do actually put in the time rather then ones wallet.

 

#opposed to easy button answers

 

Few of us have unlimited time. 


So I think its what you rather spend your time on, if you have 20 hours to spend:

- Do you spend it on rewelding the subframe to get 0pts camber?

- Do you spend it on experimenting with suspension setup?

- Do you spend it on driving?

 

Sounds like champcar wants you to spend money on the first.

Also I don't believe the champcar way is cheaper. I don't think you saved much if it took you 4 hours to build something that costs $80.

 

Nut I don't care, I just want to race and have fun. As long as the rules makes it clear what intent is, but I don't think the cost argument holds true.

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3 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

I am one of those folks with very limited time and a car with no aftermarket and seem to do ok, if we had more time we could do better, but at a cost of fun.

 

Just be clear that I there is no criticism, but I don't think Champcar really knows what they are. Is it a builder series with Lemon roots or a budget friendly WRL ?

 

I spent $700 on a race capture and built something that costs $3000 off-the-shelf. Because I enjoyed it and like the cred in the paddock (would probably make more sense financially to work at McDonals and buy the $3000 given the amount of time I put in). So I get it. 

Sorry to hi-jack the thread.

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Let’s say you search and search the catalog and No springs match the rate and specs you want? Pro tip on @mender ‘s Moog catalog: if you can get the data dumped to excel you can even use spring length to find desired rate by cutting the spring to a specific length. And even better, you can sort the entries and dive straight into your desired spring. 
 

and to @mhr650 oh no…. You couldn’t find any good springs for miatas and rx7 and rx8s and e30s??  I feel really bad for you guys that you can’t use this method to make your car handle better… s/. Haha. 😂Just kidding. Couldn’t leave that one alone, sorry!

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18 hours ago, turbogrill said:

Just be clear that I there is no criticism, but I don't think Champcar really knows what they are. Is it a builder series with Lemon roots or a budget friendly WRL ?

 

It's a more complicated WRL that wants to have only GP2/3 cars with a ruleset that allows several GTO builds. (That are not built solely due to self preservation of their VPI's)

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21 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Of witch we are still and should continue to "reward" those that do actually put in the time rather then ones wallet.

 

#opposed to easy button answers

But don’t put too much time in or they will call it tube frame and push you away to Lucky Dog or Lemons lol. 

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13 hours ago, thewheelerZ said:

Let’s say you search and search the catalog and No springs match the rate and specs you want? Pro tip on @mender ‘s Moog catalog: if you can get the data dumped to excel you can even use spring length to find desired rate by cutting the spring to a specific length. And even better, you can sort the entries and dive straight into your desired spring. 
 

and to @mhr650 oh no…. You couldn’t find any good springs for miatas and rx7 and rx8s and e30s??  I feel really bad for you guys that you can’t use this method to make your car handle better… s/. Haha. 😂Just kidding. Couldn’t leave that one alone, sorry!

I've discussed these methods and resources with both @mender and @thewheelerZ . 

Glad to see @thewheelerZ took some hints and found even more clever ways to use the resource and info.

I started doing a write-up about how I arrived at my final spring choices, but my notes aren't with me. 

Wheeler touched on using spring length to obtain predicted rates after cutting.

I found this calculator useful for that. 

http://www.racingsuspensionproducts.com/spring rate.htm

 

If you input the wire diameter and OD, you can play with # of active coils to see how much change occurs for the amount of coils cut.

Part of my calculations also involved determining "how many coils per inch" a spring has, as it helped to predict how the rate changes when you cut them shorter.

We quantified all the predictions with actual spring rate checks using a press and load cell. Another benefit to the rate checks was compressing your current spring to ride height and noting the load on the load cell. You can then take your new spring, compress it that same load rating, and note the height. If it's over your current ride height, cut a bit more. If it's shorter than your current ride height - you know the old saying "I cut it twice and it's till too short!" 

 

I also did calculations to determine the percentage of change required at each end of the car to maintain balance, since motion ratios and other factors affected that, too. 

At each of the 3 steps (suspension setups) we've taken, we've been able to maintain reasonable balance each time out of the box. This is all fun stuff when math is used.

I don't see this as a huge expense. And the mental reward is very high vs. the guy that runs a popular vehicle and has to just decide who to send the money to that did all this work for them.

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2 hours ago, mcoppola said:

 If it's shorter than your current ride height - you know the old saying "I cut it twice and it's till too short!" 

Even the best made plans sometimes come up short. ;)

 

I usually bend either 1/2" or 3/4" square tubing into a circle to use as a spacer in the spring pocket to dial in the final ride height. 

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2 hours ago, mcoppola said:

I've discussed these methods and resources with both @mender and @thewheelerZ . 

Glad to see @thewheelerZ took some hints and found even more clever ways to use the resource and info.

I started doing a write-up about how I arrived at my final spring choices, but my notes aren't with me. 

Wheeler touched on using spring length to obtain predicted rates after cutting.

I found this calculator useful for that. 

http://www.racingsuspensionproducts.com/spring rate.htm

 

If you input the wire diameter and OD, you can play with # of active coils to see how much change occurs for the amount of coils cut.

Part of my calculations also involved determining "how many coils per inch" a spring has, as it helped to predict how the rate changes when you cut them shorter.

We quantified all the predictions with actual spring rate checks using a press and load cell. Another benefit to the rate checks was compressing your current spring to ride height and noting the load on the load cell. You can then take your new spring, compress it that same load rating, and note the height. If it's over your current ride height, cut a bit more. If it's shorter than your current ride height - you know the old saying "I cut it twice and it's till too short!" 

 

I also did calculations to determine the percentage of change required at each end of the car to maintain balance, since motion ratios and other factors affected that, too. 

At each of the 3 steps (suspension setups) we've taken, we've been able to maintain reasonable balance each time out of the box. This is all fun stuff when math is used.

I don't see this as a huge expense. And the mental reward is very high vs. the guy that runs a popular vehicle and has to just decide who to send the money to that did all this work for them.


its pretty satisfying to hear your drivers get out of the car and say stuff like “OMG, that suspension is so dialed in. The car feels so good!”

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8 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:


its pretty satisfying to hear your drivers get out of the car and say stuff like “OMG, that suspension is so dialed in. The car feels so good!”

I asked for some feedback so I could make some adjustments and they all said not to change anything! But I fooled them and made some adjustments for the next race.

 

Actually I fooled me; I'm changing things back again. :)

Edited by mender
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